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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:40 pm
Posts: 3001
Steeledge wrote:
steelclan wrote:
Using a strawman to ignore our own history isn't a valid argument at all. Then comes the: "Oh stop whining race relations have improved." Improved to what level? Does systemic racism no longer exist? Has racism and ignorance taken a back seat to great American ideals? Close on 30% of this country believed Obama wasn't born in America. 30% of America think General Lee was an honorable man. Lee had his slaves whipped and then ordered brine poured into their wounds. History of race and its impact is everywhere in this nation, again you can hide behind flimsy reasoning if you wish or realize race is the biggest issue this country has and try to do something about it. It is your choice.

Ugly as it may be, history is just that - history.
That shit would never be tolerated, go unnoticed, or be unpunished in OUR society.
Period.

To attempt to ignore that race relations have improved is a fools errand to stir the pot and keep the antagonists at odds.
It doesn't solve anything either...
...and then you say, "Improved to what level?!"
Well, what level would be acceptable?! :roll:

Do you honestly think you can hold modern society responsible for the sins of its forebears?
If "yes", then you look like the bigger fool...

What do you want, reparations?!
Then let's talk about reparations for the half a millennium that my Hebrew fathers were slaves in Egypt.
:roll:

You bitch about someone raising a strawman, then ask "Does systemic racism no longer exist?"
...honestly, I can't help but :roll: ...

as for your "30%" shadow stats, you will always have the ignorant among you, no matter you much truth you try to shove down people's throats.
That's a consequence of the freedom to choose, and fortunately our government was established on the recognition that such freedom is not the government's to grant or take away..

Best way to root bigotry out is to first root it out of yourself, then lead by example.
Again, not something the government is qualified to even attempt.

Peace be unto you, brethren...


So ignore history? It happened it is over? No impact on what occurs today? Seriously that is your argument? During WW2 we went to war in conventional sense that was fairly easy to define: democracy v Nazisms. Good v evil. That war was fought on battlefields everyone could see, pour over and analyze. The US military felt good about the outcomes, pushed doctrine on the way that war was fought and pushed through military academies like West Point & Annapolis, advanced military schools at Leavenworth etc. It became at the crux of everything the military did and was further enhanced by potential war with Soviet Union on flat fields of Europe.

Then along came Vietnam. Officers who'd fought and lead in WW2 ran the military. The consequences was a militarily disastrous strategy. That failed in so many ways it is painful to think about, here are just a few:

1. Terrain. I've been to Vietnam the notion of a battle on an open plain is about as likely as seeing a Unicorn striding down 5th ave in NYC.
2. Culture, language and yes history. Vietnam has been invaded: again, again and again. Each time that invader has been looked at as something that must be pushed out. Culture: WW2 Generals knew fuck all about the Vietnamese, their way of life, beliefs and desires. Language: US Army & Marines sent in troops to quell/"protest" villages where not one US troop spoke a word of Vietnamese.
3. Young CIA members told Ike to let Vietnam have its independence from France. They were ridiculed and of course a en English twat of a General was the biggest voice who just happened to be in charge of biggest mil force in country.
4. Signs this was going to be FUBAR was everywhere. Perhaps the Buddhists monks (there was more than 1, only 1 got made famous) burning themselves alive should have been a sign...
5. Fighting the last War. History has proven time and again when America fights this way it has been a mess.

History matters and yes it matters what happened to Slaves and troops in WW2 and is still relevant today. I never said race relations haven't improved of course they have but that doesn't mean they are at an acceptable level. They aren't. If they were people wouldn't be protesting.

If you find yourself in a life where you can't understand why anyone is protesting then just maybe that life is a sheltered one. It is easy to sit back in parts of the country where nothing occurs to drastically impact your life one way or another. Dismiss history, dismiss things that you don't have to deal with. Real easy. It is tougher to step out and know the world and realize when a 12 year old Black boy is gunned down by over eager trigger happy Cops with no consequences it harkens back to a history that allowed people to grin as they stood beneath a Lynched Black man whose only crime was their skin color and not one person in those horrific pictures suffered any justice accept that man swinging from a tree who suffered a gross injustice of the vilest nature.

Much in the same way a man choked to death for selling cigarettes did albeit without a picture of grinning bigots surround his corpse. Progress indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:53 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:18 pm
Posts: 9186
steelclan wrote:
Steeledge wrote:
steelclan wrote:
Using a strawman to ignore our own history isn't a valid argument at all. Then comes the: "Oh stop whining race relations have improved." Improved to what level? Does systemic racism no longer exist? Has racism and ignorance taken a back seat to great American ideals? Close on 30% of this country believed Obama wasn't born in America. 30% of America think General Lee was an honorable man. Lee had his slaves whipped and then ordered brine poured into their wounds. History of race and its impact is everywhere in this nation, again you can hide behind flimsy reasoning if you wish or realize race is the biggest issue this country has and try to do something about it. It is your choice.

Ugly as it may be, history is just that - history.
That shit would never be tolerated, go unnoticed, or be unpunished in OUR society.
Period.

To attempt to ignore that race relations have improved is a fools errand to stir the pot and keep the antagonists at odds.
It doesn't solve anything either...
...and then you say, "Improved to what level?!"
Well, what level would be acceptable?! :roll:

Do you honestly think you can hold modern society responsible for the sins of its forebears?
If "yes", then you look like the bigger fool...

What do you want, reparations?!
Then let's talk about reparations for the half a millennium that my Hebrew fathers were slaves in Egypt.
:roll:

You bitch about someone raising a strawman, then ask "Does systemic racism no longer exist?"
...honestly, I can't help but :roll: ...

as for your "30%" shadow stats, you will always have the ignorant among you, no matter you much truth you try to shove down people's throats.
That's a consequence of the freedom to choose, and fortunately our government was established on the recognition that such freedom is not the government's to grant or take away..

Best way to root bigotry out is to first root it out of yourself, then lead by example.
Again, not something the government is qualified to even attempt.

Peace be unto you, brethren...


So ignore history? It happened it is over? No impact on what occurs today? Seriously that is your argument? During WW2 we went to war in conventional sense that was fairly easy to define: democracy v Nazisms. Good v evil. That war was fought on battlefields everyone could see, pour over and analyze. The US military felt good about the outcomes, pushed doctrine on the way that war was fought and pushed through military academies like West Point & Annapolis, advanced military schools at Leavenworth etc. It became at the crux of everything the military did and was further enhanced by potential war with Soviet Union on flat fields of Europe.

Then along came Vietnam. Officers who'd fought and lead in WW2 ran the military. The consequences was a militarily disastrous strategy. That failed in so many ways it is painful to think about, here are just a few:

1. Terrain. I've been to Vietnam the notion of a battle on an open plain is about as likely as seeing a Unicorn striding down 5th ave in NYC.
2. Culture, language and yes history. Vietnam has been invaded: again, again and again. Each time that invader has been looked at as something that must be pushed out. Culture: WW2 Generals knew fuck all about the Vietnamese, their way of life, beliefs and desires. Language: US Army & Marines sent in troops to quell/"protest" villages where not one US troop spoke a word of Vietnamese.
3. Young CIA members told Ike to let Vietnam have its independence from France. They were ridiculed and of course a en English twat of a General was the biggest voice who just happened to be in charge of biggest mil force in country.
4. Signs this was going to be FUBAR was everywhere. Perhaps the Buddhists monks (there was more than 1, only 1 got made famous) burning themselves alive should have been a sign...
5. Fighting the last War. History has proven time and again when America fights this way it has been a mess.

History matters and yes it matters what happened to Slaves and troops in WW2 and is still relevant today. I never said race relations haven't improved of course they have but that doesn't mean they are at an acceptable level. They aren't. If they were people wouldn't be protesting.

If you find yourself in a life where you can't understand why anyone is protesting then just maybe that life is a sheltered one. It is easy to sit back in parts of the country where nothing occurs to drastically impact your life one way or another. Dismiss history, dismiss things that you don't have to deal with. Real easy. It is tougher to step out and know the world and realize when a 12 year old Black boy is gunned down by over eager trigger happy Cops with no consequences it harkens back to a history that allowed people to grin as they stood beneath a Lynched Black man whose only crime was their skin color and not one person in those horrific pictures suffered any justice accept that man swinging from a tree who suffered a gross injustice of the vilest nature.

Much in the same way a man choked to death for selling cigarettes did albeit without a picture of grinning bigots surround his corpse. Progress indeed.


Hammer, meet nail.

Another great post, clan.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:34 pm
Posts: 20649
Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations".

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Bill Walsh: “Your ability to make good judgments is much easier on Thursday night than during the heat of the game."

R S: "All praise MJG. Fuck the NUT!"


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:40 pm
Posts: 3001
Jeemie wrote:
Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations".


Bingo.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:06 am
Posts: 3498
"Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations"."

Bingo my ass.

The implication is that there is no point in white people trying because without an endpoint its a bottomless pit of reparations for things I never consented to, never approved of, would have opposed had I been alive.

If you run around and sanctimoniously state that white people can't be part of the solution, nor even define the solution, than essentially the only choice they have is separatism.

I stand with these guys:

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/09/ ... al-anthem/

Saturday college is enough football. My Sundays are now free.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:12 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:40 pm
Posts: 3001
Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
"Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations"."

Bingo my ass.

The implication is that there is no point in white people trying because without an endpoint its a bottomless pit of reparations for things I never consented to, never approved of, would have opposed had I been alive.

If you run around and sanctimoniously state that white people can't be part of the solution, nor even define the solution, than essentially the only choice they have is separatism.

I stand with these guys:

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/09/ ... al-anthem/

Saturday college is enough football. My Sundays are now free.


No one said white people can't be part of the solution. You did. Things you never consented to? If you don't consent that means you're directly working to combat what constitutes racism and inequality? Are you? You telling a relative that constantly opens mouth to spew bigoted crap they stop or you will not have anything to do with them? You doing that with "friends" that do the same? Or is it not your problem?

If you're not doing anything about the problem other than saying woe is me, it wasn't me not my fault then you are part of the problem. Silence and in action in face of bigotry is assent. If you don't like that or being called on it; fine step up and do something about it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:15 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:06 am
Posts: 8039
steelclan wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations".


Bingo.




Agreed.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:38 pm
Posts: 425
Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
"Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations"."

Bingo my ass.

The implication is that there is no point in white people trying because without an endpoint its a bottomless pit of reparations for things I never consented to, never approved of, would have opposed had I been alive.

If you run around and sanctimoniously state that white people can't be part of the solution, nor even define the solution, than essentially the only choice they have is separatism.


Here's an article essentially summarizing clan's position: http://www.theroot.com/patriotism-is-fo ... 1818724099

In the end, the argument is a zero sum game. America is forever and indelibly tainted by its original sins of slavery and racism. Therefore, it is an illegitimate polity and will remain so unless and until it is completely torn down and fundamentally transformed into something different. Incremental improvement is meaningless, and any reference to it is veiled white supremacy.

I find that position to be as reductionist and absurd as the "'Merica, love it or leave it, ingrate!" arguments.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:40 pm
Posts: 3001
W&M_Steeler wrote:
Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
"Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations"."

Bingo my ass.

The implication is that there is no point in white people trying because without an endpoint its a bottomless pit of reparations for things I never consented to, never approved of, would have opposed had I been alive.

If you run around and sanctimoniously state that white people can't be part of the solution, nor even define the solution, than essentially the only choice they have is separatism.


Here's an article essentially summarizing clan's position: http://www.theroot.com/patriotism-is-fo ... 1818724099

In the end, the argument is a zero sum game. America is forever an indelibly tainted by its original sins of slavery and racism. Therefore, it is an illegitimate polity and will remain so unless and until it is completely torn down and fundamentally transformed into something different. Incremental improvement is meaningless, and any reference to it is veiled white supremacy.

I find that position to be as reductionist and absurd as the "'Merica, love it or leave it, ingrate!" arguments.


Bullcrap. In essence your argument states: STFU and be happy with your lot because otherwise when do we stop trying to make things better for you because you'll never be happy and the only way to do so is to burn down the house. Yeah that argument has been used x a million in US history:

OMG you can't let Black troops serve with white troops unless you completely burn down the institution of the military!
OMG you can't let women serve or vote!
OMG you can't let Gay people serve!
OMG you can't let immigrants come into our country (a statement that fits in any era of American history) without changing our country forever!

It amounts to this:
"Sorry Mrs Rice but we feel we've done enough as a nation to combat racism and o yeah sorry about your Kiddo. In order to make you truly happy we'd have to burn down every vestige of America. Sorry no can do. Now STFU & have a nice day!"


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:32 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:38 pm
Posts: 425
No, clan, that's an irrational, spittle-flecked response to a strawman argument. Just like the kind I'd expect from a hard-core Trumper when I say I don't object to people protesting during the anthem. One of the problems these days is that so many people immediately jump to the extremes of any given argument and then demand 100% purity and agreement. Anything less means you're the enemy. That's part of why I think discussing these things on a football message board is pointless and why I am indifferent about the standing up / sitting down /kneeling for the anthem. So much empty virtue signalling from all sides.


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