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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:59 pm 
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Hmmm. . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... SxeF68FRsk
(youtube embed doesn't seem to work)

and. . .

http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2017/09 ... om-anthem/

The comments are especially interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:59 pm 
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KCSteeler wrote:
This deal with the anthem is just another example of poor leadership. While you can make the case that the anthem doesn’t need to be played at sporting events, if it is being played, you stand, period. You are a fucking man playing a game for millions of dollars in this country. The fact that this team has an Army veteran on their team and cannot put stupid bullshit aside to stand for him says a lot. I have always loved the Steelers and have been proud to wear gear because it seemed like they stood for something, integrity at a minimum. Yesterday was an embarrassment on many levels.



Well said....totally agree!!


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:03 pm 
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SP wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
...Why does it have to saturate every sports event, especially constantly throughout every single NFL game from beginning to end? It has nothing to do with FOOTBALL, and they ram it down our throats and act like you can't play a game without it?

I wish they'd stop playing the anthem at games, and stop with all the bullshit military displays every 10 minutes! It's a sport, it doesn't need any politics or patriotism, how about we stop dragging soldiers out on the field every 10 minutes to recognize them, let's send out some teachers or paramedics or social workers that HELP PEOPLE sometimes too along with some soldiers? How about ENTIRE GAMES where we don't mention "the flag", "the troops" etc. none of that has a damn thing to do with football, The main reason for the military overkill is the Defense Department PAID FOR IT. .



Always follow the money. The Dept of Defense and National Guard started paying the NFL in 2009 to show the anthem before games to conjure up more patriotism in the country. Before that it wasn't televised like it is now. Keep people happy and content while more of our freedoms are whittled away and the government spies on its citizens. But I love my football team and that flag sure is pretty. 'Merica baby!


And following the money is EXACTLY why the owners aren't insisting that their employees stand for the national anthem....AND...interestingly, why not a one of them has signed the proven QB, Colin Kapernick. Not ONE of them will make the business decision to bring this guy in....fearing the outcry.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:05 pm 
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And now, Villanueva jersey sales have beat all other for the past 24 hours

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2081 ... nal-anthem

Quote:
Pittsburgh Steelers offensive lineman Alejandro Villanueva became the best-selling player in the NFL by midday Monday.

A spokesman for Fanatics, which runs the NFL's online store, confirmed to ESPN that, over the past 24 hours, more Villanueva gear, including jerseys and name and number T-shirts, has been ordered than that of any other NFL player.

Villanueva beat out New England Patriots quarterback Tom Brady for the top spot. Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Carson Wentz, Dallas Cowboys quarterback Dak Prescott and Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers rounded out the top five over the past day.

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Last edited by jebrick on Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:05 pm 
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VASteelerGuy wrote:
For me, and yes I'm a retired military person, respect for national symbols are fairly significant. The flag has evolved as the states were added, but symbolically it was and has been the symbol of one of the greatest nations on the planet. We've made mistakes, and I'm pretty sure as a country we'll continue to screw stuff up, but I cannot appreciate how this method of sending a message gets you there. The flag is a symbol of what was, what is, and indeed the future.

Now consider it is draped across the caskets of the fallen (soldiers, police, etc., those is service of the nation or similar) and hosted at the Olympics. Imagine if an American gold medal winner were to refuse to stand on the podium or be present for the anthem of the United States. Would you have an issue with that? Why is each medal ceremony concluded with the anthem? Because it matters. Despite the very worst that a nation can be, we're all prideful (should be) of the country we represent. If not, we can try and change it or leave. Funny, haven't even seen any actors leave the US and move to Canada after the election. Which just to answer the question, no, I do not support what the President is saying. I wish Twitter would exile him.

If there are an anthem and flag, respect it, otherwise please remove it from the event(s). It's your right not to; it's also my right not to agree with you.

As proven by the past year plus, this method of sending a message is a poor one. Everyone is caught up in the disrespect issues and not the original inequality or treatment of blacks at the hands of law enforcement. Perhaps there's a better way to take issue with something? It's not like this group of individuals does not have the financial resources to make a statement of change.

I hope it ends soon so I can watch football again; otherwise, I'm done.


I think they are trying to change it.

Most people who are opposed to this form of protest also have a problem with protesting in the streets. They claim BLM protests devolve into violence and looting. Whether that's a valid criticism or not, it's indisputable that kneeling is a peaceful, silent form of protest that has little chance of escalating into more.

What other methods would you suggest?


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:06 pm 
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VASteelerGuy wrote:
For me, and yes I'm a retired military person, respect for national symbols are fairly significant. The flag has evolved as the states were added, but symbolically it was and has been the symbol of one of the greatest nations on the planet. We've made mistakes, and I'm pretty sure as a country we'll continue to screw stuff up, but I cannot appreciate how this method of sending a message gets you there. The flag is a symbol of what was, what is, and indeed the future.

Now consider it is draped across the caskets of the fallen (soldiers, police, etc., those is service of the nation or similar) and hosted at the Olympics. Imagine if an American gold medal winner were to refuse to stand on the podium or be present for the anthem of the United States. Would you have an issue with that? Why is each medal ceremony concluded with the anthem? Because it matters. Despite the very worst that a nation can be, we're all prideful (should be) of the country we represent. If not, we can try and change it or leave. Funny, haven't even seen any actors leave the US and move to Canada after the election. Which just to answer the question, no, I do not support what the President is saying. I wish Twitter would exile him.

If there are an anthem and flag, respect it, otherwise please remove it from the event(s). It's your right not to; it's also my right not to agree with you.

As proven by the past year plus, this method of sending a message is a poor one. Everyone is caught up in the disrespect issues and not the original inequality or treatment of blacks at the hands of law enforcement. Perhaps there's a better way to take issue with something? It's not like this group of individuals does not have the financial resources to make a statement of change.

I hope it ends soon so I can watch football again; otherwise, I'm done.


"flag is a symbol of what was" yep a Flag that flew over this nation when 4 million plus where slaves. The national anthem and flag are not sacrosanct, untouchable never to be used as way to protest. That notion means you have to advocate everytime that anthem was played and the flag flew no matter when and where it did. The flag represents all this country has done and not just the things that give us warm fuzzies. So yes when the flag represents something Americans believe isn't just then the most American thing to do is protest.

Flag being draped over coffins doesn't make flags holy relics mate. Go look up art 10 on legal uses of the flag. Flag t-shirts, suits, hats, they way flag is displayed at NFL football games is all illegal and according to the article dis respectful. So some plonker running around in flag boxer shorts is no biggie but taking a knee in protest is?

If you want a country of robots that stand still during every rendition of the anthem then Russia is accepting new residents. I've been to football games and during the anthem most fans are talking, playing on cell phones, sighing wishing anthem was over and generally not giving a fuck. Yet the player taking a knee is a reason to lost our shit? No it isn't at all.

An important one: Troops don't die for a flag, an anthem or some high held abstract ideal. If you don't think so go listen to the words Troops use to describe the tragedy of war and why their comrades in arms died. You're in for a shock. Troops die for their brothers/sisters to left and right of them. They hold that above all other reasons. It is why troops that faced combat don't wish to discuss it because it was a shared experience they had with people they loved not a flag or an anthem.

Draping flags over coffins and handing it to victims doesn't equate to taking a knee is disrespect. What is truly disrespect is fighting un needed wars, ignoring troops when they return and then wrapping ourselves in the flag and telling troops" "thanks for your service," when we truly do fuck all to justify that statement.

I worked in OKC, Dallas, San Francisco & Sac with homeless vets by the bucketload. Vets this country has ignored, pushed away and thinks anthems at football games, the thanking mil version of "have a nice day (thank you for your service," watching Private Ryan on memorial day or nodding at some President's speech about honor and sacrifice on Vet's day amounts to "honoring the troops."

No. You want to honor vets and their sacrifices? Don't send our sons and daughters to a conflict with zero reasons outside of profit for defense contractors and Pols telling us how many terrorists they've killed. If you send our troops to war then foot the god damn bill when they return from war: jobs, health care, homes and treating PTSD as a real disease and not something the VA can pretend is real in 1 troop but not another because money. You want to honor our troops educate our public so they can question why we need to go to war as opposed to blindly accepting it and waiving a flag. You want to honor our troops go to a VA center and listen to Vets. Fucking earn it. You want to honor our troops? Demand to know why rich spoiled assholes got draft deferments or cushy jobs in the National Guard or mil (Reagan, Clinton, Bush & Trump).


Just a reminder: Nazis walked through an American city chanting: "blood & soil," many draped in a American flag. Why isn't there mass outrage over that? 400k American troops died fighting Nazis btw.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:15 pm 
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steelclan wrote:
Using a strawman to ignore our own history isn't a valid argument at all. Then comes the: "Oh stop whining race relations have improved." Improved to what level? Does systemic racism no longer exist? Has racism and ignorance taken a back seat to great American ideals? Close on 30% of this country believed Obama wasn't born in America. 30% of America think General Lee was an honorable man. Lee had his slaves whipped and then ordered brine poured into their wounds. History of race and its impact is everywhere in this nation, again you can hide behind flimsy reasoning if you wish or realize race is the biggest issue this country has and try to do something about it. It is your choice.

Ugly as it may be, history is just that - history.
That shit would never be tolerated, go unnoticed, or be unpunished in OUR society.
Period.

To attempt to ignore that race relations have improved is a fools errand to stir the pot and keep the antagonists at odds.
It doesn't solve anything either...
...and then you say, "Improved to what level?!"
Well, what level would be acceptable?! :roll:

Do you honestly think you can hold modern society responsible for the sins of its forebears?
If "yes", then you look like the bigger fool...

What do you want, reparations?!
Then let's talk about reparations for the half a millennium that my Hebrew fathers were slaves in Egypt.
:roll:

You bitch about someone raising a strawman, then ask "Does systemic racism no longer exist?"
...honestly, I can't help but :roll: ...

as for your "30%" shadow stats, you will always have the ignorant among you, no matter you much truth you try to shove down people's throats.
That's a consequence of the freedom to choose, and fortunately our government was established on the recognition that such freedom is not the government's to grant or take away..

Best way to root bigotry out is to first root it out of yourself, then lead by example.
Again, not something the government is qualified to even attempt.

Peace be unto you, brethren...

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Last edited by Steeledge on Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Laying the Wood wrote:

I think they are trying to change it.

Most people who are opposed to this form of protest also have a problem with protesting in the streets. They claim BLM protests devolve into violence and looting. Whether that's a valid criticism or not, it's indisputable that kneeling is a peaceful, silent form of protest that has little chance of escalating into more.

What other methods would you suggest?


1. Create events that bring folks together. They can sponsor awareness events that bring all of us together.
2. Start a change campaign - buy commericals during game time. Players association has $$
3. Sponsor or ID folks who are making a difference on both/all sides. Positive stories can yeld some positive change. Sorry, after awhile I just get lost in the lack of solutions.
4. Drop the Play 60 campaign - change it to something more meaningful.

I could go on. There's a lot of other possibilities and many ways for "professionals" to convey a message and actually/potentially impact change.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:20 pm 
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franco32 wrote:
What does kneeling at the anthem even mean? That America has let you down? What is "America"? Is it Trump? Is it the Federal Government? Is it your local politicians that have sold you down the river countless times? Is it your community? Is it your family?

And, what is the problem? Is it the rate of violent crime in the community? Poor schooling? Lack of access to capital? A breakdown of the family unit?

It's all so nebulous. We all talk in generalities meant to satisfy social media sound-bites, but tough problems require a lot of thought and hard work. It means looking in the mirror. How many of the NFL players yesterday are actively working in their communities as much as they can and giving back? Kneeling at the flag isn't going to get it done. It's not even a start. It's a symbolic sham meant for short term appeasement that will lead to no real change.

Very nice job bringing it back to being about the NFL, franco!

8-)

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:26 pm 
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steelclan wrote:
"flag is a symbol of what was" yep a Flag that flew over this nation when 4 million plus where slaves. The national anthem and flag are not sacrosanct, untouchable never to be used as way to protest. That notion means you have to advocate everytime that anthem was played and the flag flew no matter when and where it did. The flag represents all this country has done and not just the things that give us warm fuzzies. So yes when the flag represents something Americans believe isn't just then the most American thing to do is protest.

Flag being draped over coffins doesn't make flags holy relics mate. Go look up art 10 on legal uses of the flag. Flag t-shirts, suits, hats, they way flag is displayed at NFL football games is all illegal and according to the article dis respectful. So some plonker running around in flag boxer shorts is no biggie but taking a knee in protest is?

If you want a country of robots that stand still during every rendition of the anthem then Russia is accepting new residents. I've been to football games and during the anthem most fans are talking, playing on cell phones, sighing wishing anthem was over and generally not giving a fuck. Yet the player taking a knee is a reason to lost our shit? No it isn't at all.

An important one: Troops don't die for a flag, an anthem or some high held abstract ideal. If you don't think so go listen to the words Troops use to describe the tragedy of war and why their comrades in arms died. You're in for a shock. Troops die for their brothers/sisters to left and right of them. They hold that above all other reasons. It is why troops that faced combat don't wish to discuss it because it was a shared experience they had with people they loved not a flag or an anthem.

Draping flags over coffins and handing it to victims doesn't equate to taking a knee is disrespect. What is truly disrespect is fighting un needed wars, ignoring troops when they return and then wrapping ourselves in the flag and telling troops" "thanks for your service," when we truly do fuck all to justify that statement.

I worked in OKC, Dallas, San Francisco & Sac with homeless vets by the bucketload. Vets this country has ignored, pushed away and thinks anthems at football games, the thanking mil version of "have a nice day (thank you for your service," watching Private Ryan on memorial day or nodding at some President's speech about honor and sacrifice on Vet's day amounts to "honoring the troops."

No. You want to honor vets and their sacrifices? Don't send our sons and daughters to a conflict with zero reasons outside of profit for defense contractors and Pols telling us how many terrorists they've killed. If you send our troops to war then foot the god damn bill when they return from war: jobs, health care, homes and treating PTSD as a real disease and not something the VA can pretend is real in 1 troop but not another because money. You want to honor our troops educate our public so they can question why we need to go to war as opposed to blindly accepting it and waiving a flag. You want to honor our troops go to a VA center and listen to Vets. Fucking earn it. You want to honor our troops? Demand to know why rich spoiled assholes got draft deferments or cushy jobs in the National Guard or mil (Reagan, Clinton, Bush & Trump).


Just a reminder: Nazis walked through an American city chanting: "blood & soil," many draped in a American flag. Why isn't there mass outrage over that? 400k American troops died fighting Nazis btw.



Wow, just wow. I'm a three tour combat veteran and I promise I know the reasons for my service and why others have served. I also have lost many friends and my father was a victim of the horrid VA system. That said, you find me a veteran that does not stand or want/prefer others to stand for the flag, I'll buy you that cup of coffee. Not saying we don't respect your (their) right to protest, but I promise they would all prefer you get up and show respect. Do fans blow off the anthem, yep, I've seen it and it becomes a reminder of how quick we can lose our national pride. Have something happen to our nation and watch how quick we unite. What I don't like is a deliberate and cordinated effort to avoid it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:26 pm 
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Lots of good points being made. On both sides. However, a good portion of what is being discussed here is history. Some of it recent but some of it long ago. And efforts have been made over the years to correct the negative aspects of our history. And yes, more can be done and in some areas more needs to be done. But it's not just our history though. You can go back in time to virtually any country's history by and large and find not only racism but slavery. These aren't solely American made. And in some parts of the world still exist in very violent and extreme fashion.

The unfortunate reality is that there will always be some racism in society. Not just here but globally. What we no longer have in our society is slavery. That ended in this county 151 years ago. None of these protestors were slaves. Neither was their parents, grandparents, or even great grandparents in most cases. So why is it fair to condemn and hold people accountable for actions they had literally nothing to do with? When does it end?

And in that 151 soon to be 152 years come December we have gone from a country that used to enslave African Americans to a country that elected an African American as POTUS. Not once but twice. There are African Americans in Congress, the Senate, serving as Govenor and Mayor, as district attorney, and as judges to include the Supreme Court.

We have kids getting free ride scholarships where they have an opportunity to get an education and some get to fulfill a lifelong dream of playing in the NFL. And for those without superior athletic talent coming from a low income home, we have programs that helps them go to college.

How does that happen in a county that "oppresses" someone based on their race? How much are they really not being represented in our society?

Ok so it's about police treatment toward people of color. I get that and recognize police have some ugly history in that regard. But even that has come a long way to how it was in the past. And yes more can still be done. But work needs to be done on the other side of that equation as well.

So I ask this question. What is the end game here? How can it be quantified that this issue has once and for all been corrected? It has been said this was done to raise awareness. Seems that mission has been accomplished there. People are aware of it whether they want to be or not. And if you are a police officer/police department you had damn well be aware of it and ensure your behavior is appropriate.

But here is the thing. With that awareness comes some responsibility on the part of the protestors. And by that I mean the responsibility to use reason and sound (non racial) judgement in what it is you protest.

It no longer matters if the shooing was completely justifiable if the person shot also is a person of color. The narrative and story is written before the facts even come out. Even when the facts show it was the actions of the individual that led to their demise rather than the color of their skin the protest still occur. Property is still destroyed. Cities are set on fire. Businesses are vandalized and looted while the taxpayer gets to pay for it all.

If the issue is focused on the misuse of force by the police, how come I don't see any protest or riots over the Justine Ruszczyk shooting? Where are the mobs of people demanding answers? Or vandalizing/looting local business and setting police cars on fire?

Flip the script. Instead of a white unarmed woman being shot by a male Somali police officer imagine it was a Somali woman shot by a white male officer? A white officer with his body cam turned off who had also been accused of and is being sued for assaulting a woman.

Over two months since the shooting and yet no real answers. Would that lay quite like it is had that been a person of color shot? Where is the consistency in the outrage over misuse of police force?

Being a former Marine I was taught you stand, face the music and salute when you hear the anthem. My dad spent 13 months eating, sleeping, and fighting in the part of Vietnam where more agent orange was sprayed than all other parts of the country combined. That exposure has wreaked havoc on his health. It's not just people of color who have been and continue to be treated unjustly by this country. Matter of fact, he has some conditions where he could benefit from using medical cannabis. However, the VA, our government run healthcare system for vets will cut off your coverage if you test positive for "drugs". Some VA facilities are said to look the other way. Some don't. Yet it's discriminatory to drug test a welfare recipient.

So while it may be against my personal background to not stand during the anthem, I also acknowledge their right to do so. Individual liberty and freedom is what people have fought & died for.
They have every right to take a knee.

I'm just hoping there is an end game here rather than just a string of personal protest that continues to look at past negative instances while failing to acknowledge all the good and positive aspects of our history and what it has provided. For people of all color.


Last edited by 955876 on Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:34 pm 
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steelclan wrote:
VASteelerGuy wrote:
For me, and yes I'm a retired military person, respect for national symbols are fairly significant. The flag has evolved as the states were added, but symbolically it was and has been the symbol of one of the greatest nations on the planet. We've made mistakes, and I'm pretty sure as a country we'll continue to screw stuff up, but I cannot appreciate how this method of sending a message gets you there. The flag is a symbol of what was, what is, and indeed the future.

Now consider it is draped across the caskets of the fallen (soldiers, police, etc., those is service of the nation or similar) and hosted at the Olympics. Imagine if an American gold medal winner were to refuse to stand on the podium or be present for the anthem of the United States. Would you have an issue with that? Why is each medal ceremony concluded with the anthem? Because it matters. Despite the very worst that a nation can be, we're all prideful (should be) of the country we represent. If not, we can try and change it or leave. Funny, haven't even seen any actors leave the US and move to Canada after the election. Which just to answer the question, no, I do not support what the President is saying. I wish Twitter would exile him.

If there are an anthem and flag, respect it, otherwise please remove it from the event(s). It's your right not to; it's also my right not to agree with you.

As proven by the past year plus, this method of sending a message is a poor one. Everyone is caught up in the disrespect issues and not the original inequality or treatment of blacks at the hands of law enforcement. Perhaps there's a better way to take issue with something? It's not like this group of individuals does not have the financial resources to make a statement of change.

I hope it ends soon so I can watch football again; otherwise, I'm done.


"flag is a symbol of what was" yep a Flag that flew over this nation when 4 million plus where slaves. The national anthem and flag are not sacrosanct, untouchable never to be used as way to protest. That notion means you have to advocate everytime that anthem was played and the flag flew no matter when and where it did. The flag represents all this country has done and not just the things that give us warm fuzzies. So yes when the flag represents something Americans believe isn't just then the most American thing to do is protest.

Flag being draped over coffins doesn't make flags holy relics mate. Go look up art 10 on legal uses of the flag. Flag t-shirts, suits, hats, they way flag is displayed at NFL football games is all illegal and according to the article dis respectful. So some plonker running around in flag boxer shorts is no biggie but taking a knee in protest is?

If you want a country of robots that stand still during every rendition of the anthem then Russia is accepting new residents. I've been to football games and during the anthem most fans are talking, playing on cell phones, sighing wishing anthem was over and generally not giving a fuck. Yet the player taking a knee is a reason to lost our shit? No it isn't at all.

An important one: Troops don't die for a flag, an anthem or some high held abstract ideal. If you don't think so go listen to the words Troops use to describe the tragedy of war and why their comrades in arms died. You're in for a shock. Troops die for their brothers/sisters to left and right of them. They hold that above all other reasons. It is why troops that faced combat don't wish to discuss it because it was a shared experience they had with people they loved not a flag or an anthem.

Draping flags over coffins and handing it to victims doesn't equate to taking a knee is disrespect. What is truly disrespect is fighting un needed wars, ignoring troops when they return and then wrapping ourselves in the flag and telling troops" "thanks for your service," when we truly do fuck all to justify that statement.

I worked in OKC, Dallas, San Francisco & Sac with homeless vets by the bucketload. Vets this country has ignored, pushed away and thinks anthems at football games, the thanking mil version of "have a nice day (thank you for your service," watching Private Ryan on memorial day or nodding at some President's speech about honor and sacrifice on Vet's day amounts to "honoring the troops."

No. You want to honor vets and their sacrifices? Don't send our sons and daughters to a conflict with zero reasons outside of profit for defense contractors and Pols telling us how many terrorists they've killed. If you send our troops to war then foot the god damn bill when they return from war: jobs, health care, homes and treating PTSD as a real disease and not something the VA can pretend is real in 1 troop but not another because money. You want to honor our troops educate our public so they can question why we need to go to war as opposed to blindly accepting it and waiving a flag. You want to honor our troops go to a VA center and listen to Vets. Fucking earn it. You want to honor our troops? Demand to know why rich spoiled assholes got draft deferments or cushy jobs in the National Guard or mil (Reagan, Clinton, Bush & Trump).


Just a reminder: Nazis walked through an American city chanting: "blood & soil," many draped in a American flag. Why isn't there mass outrage over that? 400k American troops died fighting Nazis btw.

Steelclan, I feel honored just being on the same internet site as you. What you have typed above & earlier is more significant than anything ever typed on this site ever & VASteelerGuy, it's not so easy to move to Canada.


Last edited by blu on Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:34 pm 
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How about the networks put the fucking cameras down during the anthem? Set a shot of the flag, and leave it til it's done. Fuck all this nonsense.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:40 pm 
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steelclan wrote:
VASteelerGuy wrote:
For me, and yes I'm a retired military person, respect for national symbols are fairly significant. The flag has evolved as the states were added, but symbolically it was and has been the symbol of one of the greatest nations on the planet. We've made mistakes, and I'm pretty sure as a country we'll continue to screw stuff up, but I cannot appreciate how this method of sending a message gets you there. The flag is a symbol of what was, what is, and indeed the future.

Now consider it is draped across the caskets of the fallen (soldiers, police, etc., those is service of the nation or similar) and hosted at the Olympics. Imagine if an American gold medal winner were to refuse to stand on the podium or be present for the anthem of the United States. Would you have an issue with that? Why is each medal ceremony concluded with the anthem? Because it matters. Despite the very worst that a nation can be, we're all prideful (should be) of the country we represent. If not, we can try and change it or leave. Funny, haven't even seen any actors leave the US and move to Canada after the election. Which just to answer the question, no, I do not support what the President is saying. I wish Twitter would exile him.

If there are an anthem and flag, respect it, otherwise please remove it from the event(s). It's your right not to; it's also my right not to agree with you.

As proven by the past year plus, this method of sending a message is a poor one. Everyone is caught up in the disrespect issues and not the original inequality or treatment of blacks at the hands of law enforcement. Perhaps there's a better way to take issue with something? It's not like this group of individuals does not have the financial resources to make a statement of change.

I hope it ends soon so I can watch football again; otherwise, I'm done.


"flag is a symbol of what was" yep a Flag that flew over this nation when 4 million plus where slaves. The national anthem and flag are not sacrosanct, untouchable never to be used as way to protest. That notion means you have to advocate everytime that anthem was played and the flag flew no matter when and where it did. The flag represents all this country has done and not just the things that give us warm fuzzies. So yes when the flag represents something Americans believe isn't just then the most American thing to do is protest.

Flag being draped over coffins doesn't make flags holy relics mate. Go look up art 10 on legal uses of the flag. Flag t-shirts, suits, hats, they way flag is displayed at NFL football games is all illegal and according to the article dis respectful. So some plonker running around in flag boxer shorts is no biggie but taking a knee in protest is?

If you want a country of robots that stand still during every rendition of the anthem then Russia is accepting new residents. I've been to football games and during the anthem most fans are talking, playing on cell phones, sighing wishing anthem was over and generally not giving a fuck. Yet the player taking a knee is a reason to lost our shit? No it isn't at all.

An important one: Troops don't die for a flag, an anthem or some high held abstract ideal. If you don't think so go listen to the words Troops use to describe the tragedy of war and why their comrades in arms died. You're in for a shock. Troops die for their brothers/sisters to left and right of them. They hold that above all other reasons. It is why troops that faced combat don't wish to discuss it because it was a shared experience they had with people they loved not a flag or an anthem.

Draping flags over coffins and handing it to victims doesn't equate to taking a knee is disrespect. What is truly disrespect is fighting un needed wars, ignoring troops when they return and then wrapping ourselves in the flag and telling troops" "thanks for your service," when we truly do fuck all to justify that statement.

I worked in OKC, Dallas, San Francisco & Sac with homeless vets by the bucketload. Vets this country has ignored, pushed away and thinks anthems at football games, the thanking mil version of "have a nice day (thank you for your service," watching Private Ryan on memorial day or nodding at some President's speech about honor and sacrifice on Vet's day amounts to "honoring the troops."

No. You want to honor vets and their sacrifices? Don't send our sons and daughters to a conflict with zero reasons outside of profit for defense contractors and Pols telling us how many terrorists they've killed. If you send our troops to war then foot the god damn bill when they return from war: jobs, health care, homes and treating PTSD as a real disease and not something the VA can pretend is real in 1 troop but not another because money. You want to honor our troops educate our public so they can question why we need to go to war as opposed to blindly accepting it and waiving a flag. You want to honor our troops go to a VA center and listen to Vets. Fucking earn it. You want to honor our troops? Demand to know why rich spoiled assholes got draft deferments or cushy jobs in the National Guard or mil (Reagan, Clinton, Bush & Trump).


Just a reminder: Nazis walked through an American city chanting: "blood & soil," many draped in a American flag. Why isn't there mass outrage over that? 400k American troops died fighting Nazis btw.




Very well said again Clan.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:45 pm 
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steelclan wrote:
Close on 30% of this country believed Obama wasn't born in America.


To be fair, 2/3 of those people probably didn't know Hawaii is a US state.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:46 pm 
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Steeledge wrote:
steelclan wrote:
Using a strawman to ignore our own history isn't a valid argument at all. Then comes the: "Oh stop whining race relations have improved." Improved to what level? Does systemic racism no longer exist? Has racism and ignorance taken a back seat to great American ideals? Close on 30% of this country believed Obama wasn't born in America. 30% of America think General Lee was an honorable man. Lee had his slaves whipped and then ordered brine poured into their wounds. History of race and its impact is everywhere in this nation, again you can hide behind flimsy reasoning if you wish or realize race is the biggest issue this country has and try to do something about it. It is your choice.

Ugly as it may be, history is just that - history.
That shit would never be tolerated, go unnoticed, or be unpunished in OUR society.
Period.

To attempt to ignore that race relations have improved is a fools errand to stir the pot and keep the antagonists at odds.
It doesn't solve anything either...
...and then you say, "Improved to what level?!"
Well, what level would be acceptable?! :roll:

Do you honestly think you can hold modern society responsible for the sins of its forebears?
If "yes", then you look like the bigger fool...

What do you want, reparations?!
Then let's talk about reparations for the half a millennium that my Hebrew fathers were slaves in Egypt.
:roll:

You bitch about someone raising a strawman, then ask "Does systemic racism no longer exist?"
...honestly, I can't help but :roll: ...

as for your "30%" shadow stats, you will always have the ignorant among you, no matter you much truth you try to shove down people's throats.
That's a consequence of the freedom to choose, and fortunately our government was established on the recognition that such freedom is not the government's to grant or take away..

Best way to root bigotry out is to first root it out of yourself, then lead by example.
Again, not something the government is qualified to even attempt.

Peace be unto you, brethren...


So ignore history? It happened it is over? No impact on what occurs today? Seriously that is your argument? During WW2 we went to war in conventional sense that was fairly easy to define: democracy v Nazisms. Good v evil. That war was fought on battlefields everyone could see, pour over and analyze. The US military felt good about the outcomes, pushed doctrine on the way that war was fought and pushed through military academies like West Point & Annapolis, advanced military schools at Leavenworth etc. It became at the crux of everything the military did and was further enhanced by potential war with Soviet Union on flat fields of Europe.

Then along came Vietnam. Officers who'd fought and lead in WW2 ran the military. The consequences was a militarily disastrous strategy. That failed in so many ways it is painful to think about, here are just a few:

1. Terrain. I've been to Vietnam the notion of a battle on an open plain is about as likely as seeing a Unicorn striding down 5th ave in NYC.
2. Culture, language and yes history. Vietnam has been invaded: again, again and again. Each time that invader has been looked at as something that must be pushed out. Culture: WW2 Generals knew fuck all about the Vietnamese, their way of life, beliefs and desires. Language: US Army & Marines sent in troops to quell/"protest" villages where not one US troop spoke a word of Vietnamese.
3. Young CIA members told Ike to let Vietnam have its independence from France. They were ridiculed and of course a en English twat of a General was the biggest voice who just happened to be in charge of biggest mil force in country.
4. Signs this was going to be FUBAR was everywhere. Perhaps the Buddhists monks (there was more than 1, only 1 got made famous) burning themselves alive should have been a sign...
5. Fighting the last War. History has proven time and again when America fights this way it has been a mess.

History matters and yes it matters what happened to Slaves and troops in WW2 and is still relevant today. I never said race relations haven't improved of course they have but that doesn't mean they are at an acceptable level. They aren't. If they were people wouldn't be protesting.

If you find yourself in a life where you can't understand why anyone is protesting then just maybe that life is a sheltered one. It is easy to sit back in parts of the country where nothing occurs to drastically impact your life one way or another. Dismiss history, dismiss things that you don't have to deal with. Real easy. It is tougher to step out and know the world and realize when a 12 year old Black boy is gunned down by over eager trigger happy Cops with no consequences it harkens back to a history that allowed people to grin as they stood beneath a Lynched Black man whose only crime was their skin color and not one person in those horrific pictures suffered any justice accept that man swinging from a tree who suffered a gross injustice of the vilest nature.

Much in the same way a man choked to death for selling cigarettes did albeit without a picture of grinning bigots surround his corpse. Progress indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:53 pm 
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steelclan wrote:
Steeledge wrote:
steelclan wrote:
Using a strawman to ignore our own history isn't a valid argument at all. Then comes the: "Oh stop whining race relations have improved." Improved to what level? Does systemic racism no longer exist? Has racism and ignorance taken a back seat to great American ideals? Close on 30% of this country believed Obama wasn't born in America. 30% of America think General Lee was an honorable man. Lee had his slaves whipped and then ordered brine poured into their wounds. History of race and its impact is everywhere in this nation, again you can hide behind flimsy reasoning if you wish or realize race is the biggest issue this country has and try to do something about it. It is your choice.

Ugly as it may be, history is just that - history.
That shit would never be tolerated, go unnoticed, or be unpunished in OUR society.
Period.

To attempt to ignore that race relations have improved is a fools errand to stir the pot and keep the antagonists at odds.
It doesn't solve anything either...
...and then you say, "Improved to what level?!"
Well, what level would be acceptable?! :roll:

Do you honestly think you can hold modern society responsible for the sins of its forebears?
If "yes", then you look like the bigger fool...

What do you want, reparations?!
Then let's talk about reparations for the half a millennium that my Hebrew fathers were slaves in Egypt.
:roll:

You bitch about someone raising a strawman, then ask "Does systemic racism no longer exist?"
...honestly, I can't help but :roll: ...

as for your "30%" shadow stats, you will always have the ignorant among you, no matter you much truth you try to shove down people's throats.
That's a consequence of the freedom to choose, and fortunately our government was established on the recognition that such freedom is not the government's to grant or take away..

Best way to root bigotry out is to first root it out of yourself, then lead by example.
Again, not something the government is qualified to even attempt.

Peace be unto you, brethren...


So ignore history? It happened it is over? No impact on what occurs today? Seriously that is your argument? During WW2 we went to war in conventional sense that was fairly easy to define: democracy v Nazisms. Good v evil. That war was fought on battlefields everyone could see, pour over and analyze. The US military felt good about the outcomes, pushed doctrine on the way that war was fought and pushed through military academies like West Point & Annapolis, advanced military schools at Leavenworth etc. It became at the crux of everything the military did and was further enhanced by potential war with Soviet Union on flat fields of Europe.

Then along came Vietnam. Officers who'd fought and lead in WW2 ran the military. The consequences was a militarily disastrous strategy. That failed in so many ways it is painful to think about, here are just a few:

1. Terrain. I've been to Vietnam the notion of a battle on an open plain is about as likely as seeing a Unicorn striding down 5th ave in NYC.
2. Culture, language and yes history. Vietnam has been invaded: again, again and again. Each time that invader has been looked at as something that must be pushed out. Culture: WW2 Generals knew fuck all about the Vietnamese, their way of life, beliefs and desires. Language: US Army & Marines sent in troops to quell/"protest" villages where not one US troop spoke a word of Vietnamese.
3. Young CIA members told Ike to let Vietnam have its independence from France. They were ridiculed and of course a en English twat of a General was the biggest voice who just happened to be in charge of biggest mil force in country.
4. Signs this was going to be FUBAR was everywhere. Perhaps the Buddhists monks (there was more than 1, only 1 got made famous) burning themselves alive should have been a sign...
5. Fighting the last War. History has proven time and again when America fights this way it has been a mess.

History matters and yes it matters what happened to Slaves and troops in WW2 and is still relevant today. I never said race relations haven't improved of course they have but that doesn't mean they are at an acceptable level. They aren't. If they were people wouldn't be protesting.

If you find yourself in a life where you can't understand why anyone is protesting then just maybe that life is a sheltered one. It is easy to sit back in parts of the country where nothing occurs to drastically impact your life one way or another. Dismiss history, dismiss things that you don't have to deal with. Real easy. It is tougher to step out and know the world and realize when a 12 year old Black boy is gunned down by over eager trigger happy Cops with no consequences it harkens back to a history that allowed people to grin as they stood beneath a Lynched Black man whose only crime was their skin color and not one person in those horrific pictures suffered any justice accept that man swinging from a tree who suffered a gross injustice of the vilest nature.

Much in the same way a man choked to death for selling cigarettes did albeit without a picture of grinning bigots surround his corpse. Progress indeed.


Hammer, meet nail.

Another great post, clan.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:57 pm 
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Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations".

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations".


Bingo.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:03 pm 
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"Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations"."

Bingo my ass.

The implication is that there is no point in white people trying because without an endpoint its a bottomless pit of reparations for things I never consented to, never approved of, would have opposed had I been alive.

If you run around and sanctimoniously state that white people can't be part of the solution, nor even define the solution, than essentially the only choice they have is separatism.

I stand with these guys:

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/09/ ... al-anthem/

Saturday college is enough football. My Sundays are now free.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:12 pm 
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Posts: 3187
Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
"Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations"."

Bingo my ass.

The implication is that there is no point in white people trying because without an endpoint its a bottomless pit of reparations for things I never consented to, never approved of, would have opposed had I been alive.

If you run around and sanctimoniously state that white people can't be part of the solution, nor even define the solution, than essentially the only choice they have is separatism.

I stand with these guys:

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/09/ ... al-anthem/

Saturday college is enough football. My Sundays are now free.


No one said white people can't be part of the solution. You did. Things you never consented to? If you don't consent that means you're directly working to combat what constitutes racism and inequality? Are you? You telling a relative that constantly opens mouth to spew bigoted crap they stop or you will not have anything to do with them? You doing that with "friends" that do the same? Or is it not your problem?

If you're not doing anything about the problem other than saying woe is me, it wasn't me not my fault then you are part of the problem. Silence and in action in face of bigotry is assent. If you don't like that or being called on it; fine step up and do something about it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:15 pm 
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steelclan wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations".


Bingo.




Agreed.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Posts: 876
Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
"Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations"."

Bingo my ass.

The implication is that there is no point in white people trying because without an endpoint its a bottomless pit of reparations for things I never consented to, never approved of, would have opposed had I been alive.

If you run around and sanctimoniously state that white people can't be part of the solution, nor even define the solution, than essentially the only choice they have is separatism.


Here's an article essentially summarizing clan's position: http://www.theroot.com/patriotism-is-fo ... 1818724099

In the end, the argument is a zero sum game. America is forever and indelibly tainted by its original sins of slavery and racism. Therefore, it is an illegitimate polity and will remain so unless and until it is completely torn down and fundamentally transformed into something different. Incremental improvement is meaningless, and any reference to it is veiled white supremacy.

I find that position to be as reductionist and absurd as the "'Merica, love it or leave it, ingrate!" arguments.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:26 pm 
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W&M_Steeler wrote:
Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
"Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations"."

Bingo my ass.

The implication is that there is no point in white people trying because without an endpoint its a bottomless pit of reparations for things I never consented to, never approved of, would have opposed had I been alive.

If you run around and sanctimoniously state that white people can't be part of the solution, nor even define the solution, than essentially the only choice they have is separatism.


Here's an article essentially summarizing clan's position: http://www.theroot.com/patriotism-is-fo ... 1818724099

In the end, the argument is a zero sum game. America is forever an indelibly tainted by its original sins of slavery and racism. Therefore, it is an illegitimate polity and will remain so unless and until it is completely torn down and fundamentally transformed into something different. Incremental improvement is meaningless, and any reference to it is veiled white supremacy.

I find that position to be as reductionist and absurd as the "'Merica, love it or leave it, ingrate!" arguments.


Bullcrap. In essence your argument states: STFU and be happy with your lot because otherwise when do we stop trying to make things better for you because you'll never be happy and the only way to do so is to burn down the house. Yeah that argument has been used x a million in US history:

OMG you can't let Black troops serve with white troops unless you completely burn down the institution of the military!
OMG you can't let women serve or vote!
OMG you can't let Gay people serve!
OMG you can't let immigrants come into our country (a statement that fits in any era of American history) without changing our country forever!

It amounts to this:
"Sorry Mrs Rice but we feel we've done enough as a nation to combat racism and o yeah sorry about your Kiddo. In order to make you truly happy we'd have to burn down every vestige of America. Sorry no can do. Now STFU & have a nice day!"


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:32 pm 
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No, clan, that's an irrational, spittle-flecked response to a strawman argument. Just like the kind I'd expect from a hard-core Trumper when I say I don't object to people protesting during the anthem. One of the problems these days is that so many people immediately jump to the extremes of any given argument and then demand 100% purity and agreement. Anything less means you're the enemy. That's part of why I think discussing these things on a football message board is pointless and why I am indifferent about the standing up / sitting down /kneeling for the anthem. So much empty virtue signalling from all sides.


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