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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:35 pm 
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You telling a relative that constantly opens mouth to spew bigoted crap they stop or you will not have anything to do with them? You doing that with "friends" that do the same? Or is it not your problem?


Or his friends & family aren't racist and don't spew bigoted crap.

One thing that would help in simmering down these racial issues is the automatic assumption that you are a racist if you are white.

Just saying


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:40 pm 
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Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
"Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations"."

Bingo my ass.

The implication is that there is no point in white people trying because without an endpoint its a bottomless pit of reparations for things I never consented to, never approved of, would have opposed had I been alive.

If you run around and sanctimoniously state that white people can't be part of the solution, nor even define the solution, than essentially the only choice they have is separatism.

I stand with these guys:

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/09/ ... al-anthem/

Saturday college is enough football. My Sundays are now free.


This is not what I wrote.

Read what I wrote again. There is an endpoint. White people don't get to set what that endpoint is.

They just don't.

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Bill Walsh: “Your ability to make good judgments is much easier on Thursday night than during the heat of the game."

R S: "All praise MJG. Fuck the NUT!"


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:43 pm 
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W&M_Steeler wrote:
Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
"Here's a simple truism that people probably don't want to hear, but I'll say it anyway.

White people have zero say in setting the measurement of what constitutes "enough improvement in race relations"."

Bingo my ass.

The implication is that there is no point in white people trying because without an endpoint its a bottomless pit of reparations for things I never consented to, never approved of, would have opposed had I been alive.

If you run around and sanctimoniously state that white people can't be part of the solution, nor even define the solution, than essentially the only choice they have is separatism.


Here's an article essentially summarizing clan's position: http://www.theroot.com/patriotism-is-fo ... 1818724099

In the end, the argument is a zero sum game. America is forever and indelibly tainted by its original sins of slavery and racism. Therefore, it is an illegitimate polity and will remain so unless and until it is completely torn down and fundamentally transformed into something different. Incremental improvement is meaningless, and any reference to it is veiled white supremacy.

I find that position to be as reductionist and absurd as the "'Merica, love it or leave it, ingrate!" arguments.


Incremental improvement is fine.

Whites just don't get to declare "OK- we've done enough".

That's not how it works.

_________________
Bill Walsh: “Your ability to make good judgments is much easier on Thursday night than during the heat of the game."

R S: "All praise MJG. Fuck the NUT!"


Last edited by Jeemie on Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:43 pm 
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W&M_Steeler wrote:
No, clan, that's an irrational, spittle-flecked response to a strawman argument. Just like the kind I'd expect from a hard-core Trumper when I say I don't object to people protesting during the anthem. One of the problems these days is that so many people immediately jump to the extremes of any given argument and then demand 100% purity and agreement. Anything less means you're the enemy. That's part of why I think discussing these things on a football message board is pointless and why I am indifferent about the standing up / sitting down /kneeling for the anthem. So much empty virtue signalling from all sides.


Right both sides. Got it. You just argued against hard Trumpians and then used the very argument Trump did to describe what occurred in Charlottlesville. Jesus.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Oh...and let me ask those people who disagreed with what I wrote why they believe not having ultimate say in whether race relations have "improved enough" means blacks are going to keep piling on until whites are actually being oppressed by blacks?

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Bill Walsh: “Your ability to make good judgments is much easier on Thursday night than during the heat of the game."

R S: "All praise MJG. Fuck the NUT!"


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:45 pm 
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[quote="steelclanThis deal with the anthem is just another example of poor leadership. While you can make the case that the anthem doesn’t need to be played at sporting events, if it is being played, you stand, period. You are a fucking man playing a game for millions of dollars in this country. The fact that this team has an Army veteran on their team and cannot put stupid bullshit aside to stand for him says a lot. I have always loved the Steelers and have been proud to wear gear because it seemed like they stood for something, integrity at a minimum. Yesterday was an embarrassment on many levels.[/quote]

You speak for the military? No you don't. I'm a retired Lt Col and I have zero issue with Black players taking a knee for gross injustice. I had zero qualms John Carlos & Tommie Smith. Zero issue with Jackie Robinson calling out racism when he was told to STFU.

You want some history on the military? How about 1919 Red Summer: Black troops came back from WW1 after going through sheer hell in trenches of Europe and came home to the welcome of lynchings, oppression and vile murderous acts.

In WW2 Black vets came back to Jim Crow. Same for Korean vets.

Japanese vets many members of the famous 442nd (most decorated Unit in WW2) came back to their friends and loved ones being in concentration camps.

Black troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan have been shot down in the streets of their home towns by cops.

Taking a knee is a peaceful protest and we need to stop making out the anthem as some sacrosanct, untouchable thing especially considering our horrific History with race.

Imagine if Fredrick Douglas had taken a knee in 1860 and someone had screamed at him to stand for the anthem. The anthem that at that point celebrated a nation where there was close to 4 million slaves.

Imagine if a Black civil war vet had taken a knee in 1870s Louisiana to protest and someone screamed at him to stand for the anthem. The same anthem that celebrated a nation that did nothing about Colfax Massacre, murder, rape, lynchings that dominated reconstruction. Instead this nation stood aside & allowed bigots in the South to prevent Americans from voting, earning a good living, holding any position of power and lynching anyone who dared show any resistance.

WW1: imagine Black people took a knee and people screamed at them to stand up for the anthem. An anthem that celebrated a nation where A President watched the height of racism and hate in movies: Birth of a Nation in the damn white house. That movie and virulent white supremacy led to the Red Summer 2nd coming of KKK and thousands of cheap statues of bigoted confederate Generals showing up all over the country.

WW2 & Korea: imagine Black people took a knee and people screamed at them to stand up for the anthem. An anthem that celebrated a nation with mass segregation & Jim Crow for Black vets to return to.

Vietnam: imagine Black people took a knee and people screamed at them to stand up for the anthem. An anthem that celebrated a nation that sent Black troops to Vietnam in massively higher proportions to a War that should never have been fought in the first place.

Iraq/Afghanistan: imagine if Black athletes or Black people took a knee and people screamed at them to stand up for the anthem. An anthem that celebrated a nation were Vets returning from War got gunned down in their own neighborhoods.

If you refuse to deal with America's history of race then screaming about someone taking a knee in protest during national anthem is based on ignorance.

You have a choice you can learn and know why people protest and why it is at core of what makes this nation better or try to ignore the litany of flaws this nation has and act like any protest against what it currently is and has been hurts your fi fis.

This nation was founded by 50% slave owners start there and then maybe you can understand why without protest the national anthem would still be celebrating a nation with millions of slaves.[/quote]

Of course, drawing parallels to those issues ignores how much race relations have improved. Comparing what is happening now to Jackie Robinson, for instance, is quite frankly ahistoric nonsense. I don't know how much further we can go without violating Who is Bahn land but suffice it to say there are some factual and policy disputes related to the player's stated concerns. Not to say they can't protest (though it is against NFL rules), but once again let's not make them out to be Jackie Robinson.[/quote]

Using a strawman to ignore our own history isn't a valid argument at all. Then comes the: "Oh stop whining race relations have improved." Improved to what level? Does systemic racism no longer exist? Has racism and ignorance taken a back seat to great American ideals? Close on 30% of this country believed Obama wasn't born in America. 30% of America think General Lee was an honorable man. Lee had his slaves whipped and then ordered brine poured into their wounds. History of race and its impact is everywhere in this nation, again you can hide behind flimsy reasoning if you wish or realize race is the biggest issue this country has and try to do something about it. It is your choice.[/quote]

You are saying the kneeling is of the same kin with the other protests -- hell with Mr. Douglas himself. So, yes you are drawing a parallel between those previous protests and the one today. I am saying they really aren't. Understanding the difference between what happened in the past and what happened today is actually engaging with the history. Today, millionaire black athletes are able to protest against a sense -- which some evidence suggests isn't true -- without largely being fined or shamed in any meaningful sense (with one notable exception). In contrast, Jackie Robinson was forbidden from playing in the white MLB and faced consistent racism at every stop. We have come a long way and failure to recognize that is failing to contextualize history.

I am not convinced systemic racism exists in any meaningful way, though I am never certain exactly what is meant by that phrase. I do think there are head winds to blacks but not sure it can be described as racism. Once again, I come to this by comparing history with the present and by looking at some new empirical data. It is a good thing that progress is being made.

Why do I care? I worry that by focusing on for example racism that larger reform cannot be made. For example, the NAACP brings up an independent body of reviewers for police use violence. That can be color blind, and I think most would agree. I know I do. Let's say police are racist. This reform helps. Lets say police aren't racist. This reform helps. But presenting in as cops are racists are much less likely to have it succeed.


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