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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:40 pm 
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You must be 21 years of age to legally consume alcohol here in the Untied States. However, some of our politicians decide that it is discriminatory to check a persons ID prior to serving or selling them alcohol. That checking ID disproportionately excludes minorities from consuming alcohol based on the notion that some minorities are not able to acquire identification. Laws are then put in place to prevent anyone from checking your ID prior to serving or selling. In addition, governmental oversight will switch from enforcing ID checks to ensuring there is no ID check. Records will not be kept and people will be told that even though it is still illegal to consume alcohol under age, there will be no enforcement at bars, restaurants, or liquor stores. You are now all on the honor system.

Some don't agree with this. They argue that we will end up selling to or serving minors and are concerned about what that ultimately means to society if a person of any age can go buy a beer. The proponents however feel that it's far worse if even just one person isn't able to buy a beer because they are not able to obtain identification. They feel it is better to have minors drinking illegally than to have a small handful of people refused service because they can't (or won't) complete the simple task of obtaining proper identification.

After a few years of this there is growing evidence that minors are in fact purchasing alcohol. The proponents respond by saying there is zero evidence of this. Prove it's happening they say. The burden is on you to prove it. Our "studies" even show no minors are drinking illegally. They are respecting that "honor system" and not stepping into bars or liquor stores. The statistics say so.

The opponents say a study isn't a statistic. We've already been told there is no record being kept. We've already been told there is no enforcement. If they aren't keeping track how can you possibly know if the person sitting at the bar is really 21 or still just 20? It then becomes impossible to prove OR disprove.

We all know in this scenario minors would be drinking. We'd all agree in 100% certainty. A simple common sense unbiased look at the situation leads a rational person to conclude that if a law is not going to be enforced, people will feel very free to break that law. Especially to do something a great number of people would want to do. In some cases desperately.

Yet with politics we will vehemently disagree. Prove it we say. On both sides. We all do it. Guilty myself of it at times.

This particular topic however really isn't even worthy of debate as it can't even pass the most basic of smell test. The argument for not having voter ID is as flimsy as wet single ply TP. Oh the horror they cry if but a single person is denied their right to vote because of an ID. Never mind you need ID to function in our society. Even the poorest of poor will need an ID. And we have programs that see to it they get one. Some of those programs however (DMV) dont even check citizenship. No need they say, we have the honor system.

The opponents reason for wanting ID checks is solid as oak. The right to vote is a sacred right granted to CITIZENS of this country. Voting is powerful and ALL citizens should exercise their right to vote. But we must guard this process as it is sacred. Far too sacred to allow even but one non-citizen to cast even one vote. Not a single one. Because that illegal vote cancels out the vote of a person that had a legal right to do so under our constitution. If we give that away, we give away our sovereignty and ultimately will give away our country.

Poltargyst, you said yourself that "it's a simple fact that the more people that vote in an election the greater the chance a democrat wins that election". You can say that on one hand yet on the other deny or simply refuse to acknowledge one of the very means they are using to increase their number of voters? Very inconsistent.

Would you defend that minors weren't drinking if we did away with ID checks? It would be funny if you tried.

And yet you believe someone who's continued presence in this country along with the continuation of benefits they are receiving isn't going to try to vote when those very critical things are potentially jeopardized? Really?

Someone already breaking the law is going to not break it again even when it's in their crucial interest to do so why exactly? Oh I forgot, the honor system.

You are being intellectually dishonest if you believe that which is why I brought up your integrity.

Feel free to post more studies that tell you even though it's Saturday night, those high school kids are going to stick to Coke & Pepsi because it's illegal for them to buy booze. Nevermind the fact they are fully aware not a single liquor store in the state will ask them for ID.

I've said it before but this time I do mean it. I won't respond again to this topic. So flame away. Post more studies about how people already breaking the law by being here illegally are not going to break it again to stay. That good ole honor system. Gotta love it.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:56 pm 
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Posts: 5795
955876 wrote:
I don't need to read an article to know illegals are voting in our elections.

Those who fight voter ID can also get articles published disputing it.

Propaganda has been around a long time.

You dispute some written word but trust other written word hook line and sinker.

About the integrity thing. At the least admit that illegals have voted in our elections. To say they have not would simply be dishonest or complete niativity.

We can agree to disagree about the number and then leave it at that.


Oh, no, you don't get to dismiss the article I linked to. That was written by one who does the research and whose data was used in the Electorial Studies paper. This is not some hack, this is an expert witness. This is a guy who does the research, and he is telling you that the Electorial Studies paper is crap. You don't get to just blow off his opinion. But he's not alone...

http://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/a ... ingly-rare

Quote:
•Rutgers University political scientist Lorraine C. Minnite has studied voter fraud allegations for more than a decade. She has concluded that voter fraud, including noncitizen voting, is “extremely rare.” In one analysis of the first three years of a Justice Department initiative to uncover voter fraud ending in 2005, she found that there were only 14 convictions of noncitizens for voting.


You got me. In 2005 there were 14 convictions of noncitizen voter fraud. :o I am now forced to admit that noncitizens have voted...in numbers way too small to make a difference to anyone.

I'm not going to keep quoting from this source, but there's case after case showing at most small numbers of noncitizen voters like that.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:35 pm
Posts: 5795
955876 wrote:
You must be 21 years of age to legally consume alcohol here in the Untied States. However, some of our politicians decide that it is discriminatory to check a persons ID prior to serving or selling them alcohol. That checking ID disproportionately excludes minorities from consuming alcohol based on the notion that some minorities are not able to acquire identification. Laws are then put in place to prevent anyone from checking your ID prior to serving or selling. In addition, governmental oversight will switch from enforcing ID checks to ensuring there is no ID check. Records will not be kept and people will be told that even though it is still illegal to consume alcohol under age, there will be no enforcement at bars, restaurants, or liquor stores. You are now all on the honor system.

Some don't agree with this. They argue that we will end up selling to or serving minors and are concerned about what that ultimately means to society if a person of any age can go buy a beer. The proponents however feel that it's far worse if even just one person isn't able to buy a beer because they are not able to obtain identification. They feel it is better to have minors drinking illegally than to have a small handful of people refused service because they can't (or won't) complete the simple task of obtaining proper identification.

After a few years of this there is growing evidence that minors are in fact purchasing alcohol. The proponents respond by saying there is zero evidence of this. Prove it's happening they say. The burden is on you to prove it. Our "studies" even show no minors are drinking illegally. They are respecting that "honor system" and not stepping into bars or liquor stores. The statistics say so.

The opponents say a study isn't a statistic. We've already been told there is no record being kept. We've already been told there is no enforcement. If they aren't keeping track how can you possibly know if the person sitting at the bar is really 21 or still just 20? It then becomes impossible to prove OR disprove.

We all know in this scenario minors would be drinking. We'd all agree in 100% certainty. A simple common sense unbiased look at the situation leads a rational person to conclude that if a law is not going to be enforced, people will feel very free to break that law. Especially to do something a great number of people would want to do. In some cases desperately.

Yet with politics we will vehemently disagree. Prove it we say. On both sides. We all do it. Guilty myself of it at times.

This particular topic however really isn't even worthy of debate as it can't even pass the most basic of smell test. The argument for not having voter ID is as flimsy as wet single ply TP. Oh the horror they cry if but a single person is denied their right to vote because of an ID. Never mind you need ID to function in our society. Even the poorest of poor will need an ID. And we have programs that see to it they get one. Some of those programs however (DMV) dont even check citizenship. No need they say, we have the honor system.

The opponents reason for wanting ID checks is solid as oak. The right to vote is a sacred right granted to CITIZENS of this country. Voting is powerful and ALL citizens should exercise their right to vote. But we must guard this process as it is sacred. Far too sacred to allow even but one non-citizen to cast even one vote. Not a single one. Because that illegal vote cancels out the vote of a person that had a legal right to do so under our constitution. If we give that away, we give away our sovereignty and ultimately will give away our country.

Poltargyst, you said yourself that "it's a simple fact that the more people that vote in an election the greater the chance a democrat wins that election". You can say that on one hand yet on the other deny or simply refuse to acknowledge one of the very means they are using to increase their number of voters? Very inconsistent.

Would you defend that minors weren't drinking if we did away with ID checks? It would be funny if you tried.

And yet you believe someone who's continued presence in this country along with the continuation of benefits they are receiving isn't going to try to vote when those very critical things are potentially jeopardized? Really?

Someone already breaking the law is going to not break it again even when it's in their crucial interest to do so why exactly? Oh I forgot, the honor system.

You are being intellectually dishonest if you believe that which is why I brought up your integrity.

Feel free to post more studies that tell you even though it's Saturday night, those high school kids are going to stick to Coke & Pepsi because it's illegal for them to buy booze. Nevermind the fact they are fully aware not a single liquor store in the state will ask them for ID.

I've said it before but this time I do mean it. I won't respond again to this topic. So flame away. Post more studies about how people already breaking the law by being here illegally are not going to break it again to stay. That good ole honor system. Gotta love it.

If I were to ask for proof that minors buying and drinking alcohol had ever happened I could get it. Why? Because minors have been arrested for drinking alcohol! People get caught! But I am being asked to believe that MILLIONS of noncitizen voters vote in every election, and they are so sneaky about it we can only catch a few at a time?

It's not the honor system. This stuff gets investigated. See my previous link. This gets investigated. Sometimes someone actually gets convicted. But it ain't happening by the millions.

This business of democrats winning when people vote. You act like that's proof of something nefarious. It isn't. Republicans turn out for every election. Democrats often need to get turned out. All that's saying is that when Dems get the turnout, they win. Says nothing whatsoever about Dems getting illegals to vote.

I'm not necessarily opposed to requiring a voter ID, except that in the back of myu mind I'm remembering some talk show or other talking about how even that might be a hardship for some. Can you promise me no American citizens will be denied getting to vote because we've implemented a photo ID requirement?

And as I've said, Republicans want us to think voter fraud is a major problem so that they can justify implementing voter suppression tecniques which result in American citizens being unable to cast legal votes so that they can win elections.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:56 pm 
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Still Lit,

The spending per student is so high in NY state because most of it goes to teachers and administrators. I know it isn't that way in the whole country, but it is here. I'm not saying teachers can't make a difference, but at the end of the day, the best teachers in the world aren't going to help some of these areas.

Let's take a look at Hempstead again. 26k spent per student...mostly going to teachers and administrators. Here are the average salaries for that failing district:

Kindergarten Teacher $94,730
Elementary School Teacher $96,860
Middle School Teacher $97,920
High School Teacher $96,250

It's a joke. The teachers are paid amazingly well and the district has been on NY state's failing list for years. It sucks. Is it the teacher's fault? No. But, tossing that extra cash in the teachers pockets is literally doing them no good.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:05 pm 
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What a second. I'm supposed to believe that 22 million non-citizens in this country all follow the honor system? Cmon who are we trying to fool here. These elections are razor tight in some cases....especially the electoral college. And, we are to believe there are only 14 people out there voting as non-citizens?

There are very powerful interests out there attacking any sort of study on election integrity. Trump's commission has been trying to get voter info from all the states to further study the issue. Seems harmless right? I mean if there is nothing to hide, why not cooperate? Trump will just look like a fool in the end, right?

Instead, we have States doing everything they can to block information. We have former Obama administration alumni suing the election integrity commission under the little known Paperwork Reduction Act to try to tie them up in court for years. I wonder why?

It doesn't take much to connect the dots here.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:24 pm 
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franco32 wrote:
Still Lit,

The spending per student is so high in NY state because most of it goes to teachers and administrators. I know it isn't that way in the whole country, but it is here. I'm not saying teachers can't make a difference, but at the end of the day, the best teachers in the world aren't going to help some of these areas.

Let's take a look at Hempstead again. 26k spent per student...mostly going to teachers and administrators. Here are the average salaries for that failing district:

Kindergarten Teacher $94,730
Elementary School Teacher $96,860
Middle School Teacher $97,920
High School Teacher $96,250

It's a joke. The teachers are paid amazingly well and the district has been on NY state's failing list for years. It sucks. Is it the teacher's fault? No. But, tossing that extra cash in the teachers pockets is literally doing them no good.


Oh I think sometimes the teachers may be failing. I teach at university for much less. If my teaching were not adequate I would never have received tenure. My argument is that many districts underpay and thus fail to attract the needed talent. Some districts do not underpay but do not have adequate teaching standards. In Baltimore public schools the pay is 55k. So your pointing to Hempstead is not an adequate argument for the general state of affairs. Are you saying that we should not raise teacher pay in Baltimore or that paying an elementary teacher 100k is dumb or both? Why do doctors get 6 figure salaries and still have patients that die? Maybe since patients still die we ought to pay doctors less? Or is it that bodies are more complicated than human souls? And how much do you get paid for what you do? Is what you do for a living more important than educating the young? What wage do you think educating our children is appropriate given the importance you attach to educating our young? Or is it that convincing others to buy goods and services is a skill that deserves more pay than educating the young?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdwl7X6Jruo


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:41 am 
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This will offend a lot of people...there ARE actually bigger problems in this country than debating perceived vs. actual racism.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:27 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
franco32 wrote:
Still Lit,

The spending per student is so high in NY state because most of it goes to teachers and administrators. I know it isn't that way in the whole country, but it is here. I'm not saying teachers can't make a difference, but at the end of the day, the best teachers in the world aren't going to help some of these areas.

Let's take a look at Hempstead again. 26k spent per student...mostly going to teachers and administrators. Here are the average salaries for that failing district:

Kindergarten Teacher $94,730
Elementary School Teacher $96,860
Middle School Teacher $97,920
High School Teacher $96,250

It's a joke. The teachers are paid amazingly well and the district has been on NY state's failing list for years. It sucks. Is it the teacher's fault? No. But, tossing that extra cash in the teachers pockets is literally doing them no good.


Oh I think sometimes the teachers may be failing. I teach at university for much less. If my teaching were not adequate I would never have received tenure. My argument is that many districts underpay and thus fail to attract the needed talent. Some districts do not underpay but do not have adequate teaching standards. In Baltimore public schools the pay is 55k. So your pointing to Hempstead is not an adequate argument for the general state of affairs. Are you saying that we should not raise teacher pay in Baltimore or that paying an elementary teacher 100k is dumb or both? Why do doctors get 6 figure salaries and still have patients that die? Maybe since patients still die we ought to pay doctors less? Or is it that bodies are more complicated than human souls? And how much do you get paid for what you do? Is what you do for a living more important than educating the young? What wage do you think educating our children is appropriate given the importance you attach to educating our young? Or is it that convincing others to buy goods and services is a skill that deserves more pay than educating the young?


I'm saying that paying the teachers more money will not change the outcome. Long Island is littered with school districts in terrible areas that pay really well. It isn't just Hempstead. These districts are all primarily Black and Hispanic and low income and they are failing. The neighboring white districts are affluent and they all do very well. Now the school budgets between the two and the teacher pay is very similar (and in some cases the poor districts pay better). Now, of course the Blacks and Hispanics are not intellectually inferior, so it comes down to socialization, the family unit, and economics.

Pouring more money in those schools will not change the outcome. There are too many other factors at play here that will continue the spiral of failing schools. You simply can not have good schools in an environment dominated by crime, zero or one parent households, and no economic hope. I can put the best seed down with tons of sunlight and lots of water...but if it is in terrible soil...nothing will grow. Can teachers make a difference at the micro level with some students here and there? Of course. But, the overall picture will continue to be horrendous until the underlying community problems are solved.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:35 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
This will offend a lot of people...there ARE actually bigger problems in this country than debating perceived vs. actual racism.


No doubt, but perceived racism "sells". Media outlets know their ratings go way up if they can sell an item as "racism" and political groups know their power will grow if they can do the same. So, the issue won't go away anytime soon.

My wife who is British just can't understand it. "Why do Americans immediately cast everything as a race issue?" she says. The answer is simple. There is a lot to be gained by doing so. It's about power and humankind's thirst to accumulate it. History will always show that humans will leverage whatever they can to gain power. At this point in history, identity politics is just another way to gain power.

Only way to stop it is by voting out the politicians that continually obsess over it, use it to divide us, and try to exploit it.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:47 am 
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Ok, let's consider my position pretty much refuted.

Observe your comment that you cannot have good education outcomes where there is crime and no economic hope. But we know that good education is the primary correlate to economic status. So you are possibly pointing out a catch-22. Unless the education outcomes improve, there will be no economic improvement and this contributes to crime and lack of economic hope which makes improving outcomes impossible which reinforces no economic hope and crime and so on.

We are in complete agreement that family factors are are absolutely paramount.

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