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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:34 am 
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Scunge, to your point:

Martavis Bryant Targets Per Game
With Bell:
H 46/9 (5.1)
A 45/8 (5.6)

Without Bell :
H 36/4 (9.0)
A 49/6 (8.2)

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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:50 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Scunge, to your point:

Martavis Bryant Targets Per Game
With Bell:
H 46/9 (5.1)
A 45/8 (5.6)

Without Bell :
H 36/4 (9.0)
A 49/6 (8.2)


A question for these stats:

What proportion of those games with Bell for MB come from the very beginning of his career when he was just breaking in (and wasn't a top 2 option) and from this year when decline in targets might reflect MB rustiness?

Additional context would aid interpretation.

EDIT: I'll partially answer my own question, Martavis only overlapped with LeVeon for a total of 3 games in his second year in the league. He averaged a similar # of receptions with bell and without bell during that year (granted not targets).


Last edited by FromPittWithLove on Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:59 pm 
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FromPittWithLove wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Scunge, to your point:

Martavis Bryant Targets Per Game
With Bell:
H 46/9 (5.1)
A 45/8 (5.6)

Without Bell :
H 36/4 (9.0)
A 49/6 (8.2)


A question for these stats:

What proportion of those games with Bell for MB come from the very beginning of his career when he was just breaking in (and wasn't a top 2 option) and from this year when decline in targets might reflect MB rustiness?

Additional context would aid interpretation.


Based on a pretty small career sample size, breaking it down into too many more subcategories would make it statistically irrelevant.


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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Ice wrote:
FromPittWithLove wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Scunge, to your point:

Martavis Bryant Targets Per Game
With Bell:
H 46/9 (5.1)
A 45/8 (5.6)

Without Bell :
H 36/4 (9.0)
A 49/6 (8.2)


A question for these stats:

What proportion of those games with Bell for MB come from the very beginning of his career when he was just breaking in (and wasn't a top 2 option) and from this year when decline in targets might reflect MB rustiness?

Additional context would aid interpretation.


Based on a pretty small career sample size, breaking it down into too many more subcategories would make it statistically irrelevant.


I'd argue the split is already statistically irrelevant if you don't actually account for confounding factors that can skew your data (i.e. he's the 4th receiver hes gonna get less targets & first couple games off suspension not at peak ability).


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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:03 pm 
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Good job Ben.

and as an aside, maybe if Tomlin was willing and able to rein these guys in on occasion Ben wouldn't have to do it himself.



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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:07 pm 
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FromPittWithLove wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Scunge, to your point:

Martavis Bryant Targets Per Game
With Bell:
H 46/9 (5.1)
A 45/8 (5.6)

Without Bell :
H 36/4 (9.0)
A 49/6 (8.2)


A question for these stats:

What proportion of those games with Bell for MB come from the very beginning of his career when he was just breaking in (and wasn't a top 2 option) and from this year when decline in targets might reflect MB rustiness?

Additional context would aid interpretation.

sure... as I was doing it-- from recollection only--the numbers were consistent from year to year.

Also worth noting that Bryant got one more target than did Wheaton once activated in 2014. He and Wheaton were both starters, essentially.

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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:08 pm 
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You mean reinstated in 2015? The 4th WR comment is for 2014.

He got 4.8 targets per game in 2014.

That ranked 5th on the team, behind AB (11.31), LBell (6.56), Miller (5.68), and Wheaton (5.375)

He played 10 games with Bell his first year, the rest come from this year and 3 after suspension in 2015 (17 total games). More than 50% of his games played with Leveon come from his first year in the league where it was clear he wasn't going to a focal point beyond deep passing plays (this did change in the Raven playoff game).


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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:18 pm 
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FromPittWithLove wrote:
You mean reinstated in 2015? The 4th WR comment is for 2014.

He got 4.8 targets per game in 2014.

That ranked 5th on the team, behind AB (11.31), LBell (6.56), Miller (5.68), and Wheaton (5.375)

He played 10 games with Bell his first year, the rest come from this year and 3 after suspension in 2015 (17 total games). More than 50% of his games played with Leveon come from his first year in the league where it was clear he wasn't going to a focal point beyond deep passing plays (this did change in the Raven playoff game).

Sorry, I was talking about "activation" 2014, not reinstatement. In 2014, Bryant immediately went to the #2 WR in targets. Wheaton almost caught him in last two weeks when Bryant tailed off for whatever reason... but from the time Bryant suited up, he was the defacto #2, at least in terms of targets. At worst, 2a. I think Bryant may even have had more targets+rush touches than Miller, meaning only AB and Bell had more from week 7 onwards.

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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:24 pm 
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They were pretty similar even if you exclude those 2 weeks (5.6, MB, vs 5, MW), but I think I'm not making my point well here.

These is a huge confound in this analysis - MB's freedom from LB in the offense completely overlaps with MB being in his second year of the system and at his peak performance (of what we got to see of his uninterrupted career). No doubt he's going to improve from year 1 to year 2 (in any variety of ways including game experience, trust from Ben), which leads to more targets.

In the only 3 games from 2014 that the two played together MB had 8.67 targets - that's right on target with what happened after LB got hurt (9.14 if you take out the last CLE game). I think LB's injury in MB second year makes it impossible to actually assess LBs influence on MB in a clean way.

I think I'm arguing just to argue at this point tho :lol: , as I'm not even sure how what we are talking about goes back to Scunge's point. I do think the Steelers decided to play the game through Bell the second half of last year and that may have hurt scoring but they also won a bunch of games when they started featuring him. I'll agree that Bell is not the explosive player other running backs are, but last year he produced as consistently from attempt to attempt as any RB I've ever seen - his anticipation and vision last year were the best I've ever seen and you really can't undervalue the ability to churn out 5 yards every time. It's a back breaker.

Scunge is arguing that Bell's inability to blast long runs is bad, and it probably is, but it should probably also be used realize how impressive that 4.9 YPC from last year is since its only inflated by a total 4 runs over 20 yards.


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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:03 pm 
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Right. Probably the broader point here is good offenses can move the ball in big chunks, which sort of also implies scoring quickly.

The opposite of that is the grinding run game with the horizontal passing.

And I agree bell for as great as he is at most gives Haley/tomlin cover to not go big. And not going big means they will never reach their potential and be a great offense as noted in first point.

I strongly agree with all of this too. I love winning games but there’s a real danger in Haley’s approach. We saw it last year in the playoffs so more than merely theoretical.


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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:04 pm 
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Bell was extremely consistent as a runner, which plays right into "I'd run it 4 downs in a row if I could" Haley's philosophy. Bell was also #1 in the NFL last year in short yardage situations. That's who he is.

Of course, they took away the short yardage job from him so far, but that may have more to do with his apparent lack of 100% explosion compared to last year.

If Bell is in, they just go crazy giving him the ball, that is clear. Yes, last year's team seemed to do well when they ran through Bell, just as the previous year's team did well with Ben gunslinging. Just as 2014's did in the second half of season with a more balanced attack. Every year is different and this year's personnel is much closer to the balance of 2014 than last year's guys off the street.

Last week wasn't a particularly good example of what this team is-- they basically got up 19-0 and decided to end the game as quickly as possible after that point. Prevent D, run the shit out of the ball for 30+ minutes.

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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:14 pm 
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Apologize for all the noise and the distractions Steeler nation let's stay focus #Pushfor7
[/quote]

Big ol' nothing burger.

Why anyone cares that AB beat up a Gatorade container is beyond me.

He seems like the kind of guy that let's his passion get the best of him and who also recognizes when he did so inappropriately after the fact.

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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:55 pm 
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Moving on

Let's kick the Jags asses

Who cares that he assaulted the Gatorade jug and threw a tantrum?

FUCK it.

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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:05 pm 
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When Bell is in the lineup, PIT is going to run the ball more and throw to the backs more. Only one football. Someone(s) is getting less passes thrown their way.

As for Bell, I've seen flashes of the speed and burst. I'm pretty well convinced he's making conscious efforts to avoid big collisions at full speed. That will change later in the year when he realizes he needs to bust his ass just to earn an $8M/yr contract offer.

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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:03 pm 
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BarryFoster wrote:
Moving on

Let's kick the Jags asses

Who cares that he assaulted the Gatorade jug and threw a tantrum?

FUCK it.
You would have prefered he FUCKED the gatorade jug?

Now that would have been something to see. Better than being bitch slapped by a field goal practice net.

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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:05 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
You would have prefered he FUCKED the gatorade jug?

Now that would have been something to see. Better than being bitch slapped by a field goal practice net.


I really have no issue with what AB did. I like seeing the passion. This team could probably use some more of that in some of the disinterested, sloppy road losses to inferior teams.

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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:48 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
You would have prefered he FUCKED the gatorade jug?

Now that would have been something to see. Better than being bitch slapped by a field goal practice net.


I really have no issue with what AB did. I like seeing the passion. This team could probably use some more of that in some of the disinterested, sloppy road losses to inferior teams.


So with you stating you're ok with what AB did, in your opinion was it ok for him to put his hands up like wtf, toss the Gatorade jug, fiercely slap away the coaches hand that is on your shoulder trying to talk you down off the ledge?


In my opinion all of is detrimental to the cause. I would of sat that mother fucker on the bench for that shit and told him to sit his ass down and cry over there and he can try and play next week with his teammates.


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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:30 pm 
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SteelThrillsseeker wrote:
So with you stating you're ok with what AB did, in your opinion was it ok for him to put his hands up like wtf, toss the Gatorade jug, fiercely slap away the coaches hand that is on your shoulder trying to talk you down off the ledge?


Slapping away a coach's hand, no.

The rest of it, sure. We've seen Brady at least that demonstrative on the sideline many times. And if it's ok for Ben to wave and gesture at receivers after they screw up, then it's certainly ok for AB.

Sure, AB is a diva and we've seen him pout when he's not getting the ball. But he's also a fierce competitor, and sometimes that fire is lacking in the team.

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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:11 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
And again, I would like to point out that the offense produced just 26 points.

They weren't trying to score more. They turtled the entire second half against a team whose offense they had no respect for.

Scunge wrote:
26 points is not going to get it done against NE or Atlanta or Green Bay in post season play.

They know that. When they play those teams, they will try to score the whole game.

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 Post subject: Re: Ben calls out Antonio
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:48 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
They turtled the entire second half against a team whose offense they had no respect for.


Which is fair. A win is a win.

But you there are very few teams you can count out like that, regardless of the first half or previous games. And it's gotten them in trouble before.

Additionally, the offense played well in the first half. Seems like maybe they could have used a full game of work given how poorly they played the first 3 games. Or at least work on some things you'd like to do, or like to do better. They threw away 2 quarters of opportunity to get better on offense. And maybe if they hadn't fucked the goat against Chicago they wouldn't have had to do that.

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