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 Post subject: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:43 am 
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That knee injury was so bad they might have to take his leg.

Keep this kid in your prayers. Light a candle, think a positive thought or say a good word for him.

He isn't a Steeler or has any association with Pittsburgh- but when something like that happens you hope for the best.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:44 am 
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Holy fuck man that is brutal! I hope things turn out well for him.


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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:50 am 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
That knee injury was so bad they might have to take his leg.

Keep this kid in your prayers. Light a candle, think a positive thought or say a good word for him.

He isn't a Steeler or has any association with Pittsburgh- but when something like that happens you hope for the best.


His leg?!?

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:01 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
VeritasSteel wrote:
That knee injury was so bad they might have to take his leg.

Keep this kid in your prayers. Light a candle, think a positive thought or say a good word for him.

He isn't a Steeler or has any association with Pittsburgh- but when something like that happens you hope for the best.


His leg?!?


Yes. The leg looked like it liquified when he turned. The report is he was in surgery to hopefully save it.

https://deadspin.com/zach-millers-gruesome-knee-injury-is-worse-than-imagine-1819969701

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:12 pm 
Hope they can save his leg


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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:17 pm 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
VeritasSteel wrote:
That knee injury was so bad they might have to take his leg.

Keep this kid in your prayers. Light a candle, think a positive thought or say a good word for him.

He isn't a Steeler or has any association with Pittsburgh- but when something like that happens you hope for the best.


His leg?!?


Yes. The leg looked like it liquified when he turned. The report is he was in surgery to hopefully save it.

https://deadspin.com/zach-millers-gruesome-knee-injury-is-worse-than-imagine-1819969701

I was watching the game when it happened. It was truly brutal. May be the worst knee dislocation I've ever seen on the field. Artery damaged was the first thing I thought of when I saw how far his knee was dislocated. Really hope all goes the best for him, but my guess is his career is over.


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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:42 pm 
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:arrow: :arrow: **Prayers**


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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:50 pm 
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It really didn't look bad at first until they showed the EZ view.... You could see the leg bent back awkwardly and the ankle just crushed. It reminded me of the Napoleon McCallum injury a while back. I had to walk away from the TV set for a little while.
I had no idea the cost might be his leg, that is truly awful news.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:56 pm 
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Good news so far....

Zach Miller (knee) is out of surgery, but remains hospitalized in New Orleans.

The Bears deemed Miller's emergency operation "successful." They called the procedure "vascular surgery to repair a torn popliteal artery." Per ESPN's Chris Mortensen, Miller underwent a post-surgery MRI to "evaluate blood flow and anatomy of injured leg." No one has said for sure yet that Miller is out of the woods with regards to keeping his leg, but it's beginning to trend that way.

Source: Bears on Twitter Oct 30 - 1:41 PM


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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:59 pm 
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Really good news!


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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Great news!

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:09 pm 
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Jesus. I can't bring myself to watch the video. I just remember one of the dolts from the Fantasy Sports channel on sirius this morning saying that Zach Miller is probably out for the season........

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:27 pm 
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R S wrote:
Jesus. I can't bring myself to watch the video. I just remember one of the dolts from the Fantasy Sports channel on sirius this morning saying that Zach Miller is probably out for the season........

I tried to avoid seeing it, but as I was browsing through twitter, there it was. I immediately sent one up for him.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:56 pm 
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That's a shame when watching the video, but it's not hard to watch at all.

The Paul George and Gordon Hayward injuries and the Ware kid from Louisville were ten times harder to watch.

Even more surprising to me is that educated adults still believe praying does anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:10 pm 
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Steelcody36 wrote:
That's a shame when watching the video, but it's not hard to watch at all.

The Paul George and Gordon Hayward injuries and the Ware kid from Louisville were ten times harder to watch.

Even more surprising to me is that educated adults still believe praying does anything.


Cody- Anything positive beats a neutral or negative any day- unless its a medical test.No one was asking you to convert to a religion, grab a set of rosary beads, kneel on a prayer mat, or have sex with a bull (Macedonians) - you could have just sent a positive thought. But I guess you wanted a chance to push your religious beliefs on the rest of us.

Cody not to attack you but you sounded like a Star Trek Nerd when the conversation is about Star Wars?

:geek: "Kirk would not use a lightsaber because it's not real science and he'd want a yellow one".

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:28 pm 
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Come on guys, as swissvale says, you gotta keep SBI in mind.

If the Steelers fall apart down the stretch and miss the playoffs, a lower strength of schedule will help give us a better draft pick. So, we need Chicago to be bad, truly for SBI. Sorry Zach, the leg has to go. I’m sure he’ll have a promising career in pegleg porn.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:31 pm 
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TB wrote:
Come on guys, as swissvale says, you gotta keep SBI in mind.

If the Steelers fall apart down the stretch and miss the playoffs, a lower strength of schedule will help give us a better draft pick. So, we need Chicago to be bad, truly for SBI. Sorry Zach, the leg has to go. I’m sure he’ll have a promising career in pegleg porn.


Well he woke up from his surgery and immediately complained they overturned his TD.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:57 pm 
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TB wrote:
Come on guys, as swissvale says, you gotta keep SBI in mind.

If the Steelers fall apart down the stretch and miss the playoffs, a lower strength of schedule will help give us a better draft pick. So, we need Chicago to be bad, truly for SBI. Sorry Zach, the leg has to go. I’m sure he’ll have a promising career in pegleg porn.


Read that Rooting for Injuries chapter again, TB. It clearly draws the line at life-threatening or career-ending injuries. Plus..unlike many of you other dweebs, I never rooted for the Steelers to lose their traditional season-ending finale to the Browns in order to improve draft position.


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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:15 pm 
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Steelcody36 wrote:
That's a shame when watching the video, but it's not hard to watch at all.

The Paul George and Gordon Hayward injuries and the Ware kid from Louisville were ten times harder to watch.

Even more surprising to me is that educated adults still believe praying does anything.


Weird. Maybe you should peruse some of the faculty in the college of arts and sciences at Catholic University of America or some of the priests who teach in the graduate programs at Notre Dame or Loyola in LA or Chicago. I'm pretty sure the Jesuit or Dominican priest who has PhDs in both physics and philosophy is more educated than you. No need to be so narrow minded.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:18 pm 
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Zach and Jeanne Make a Porno in theaters this summer?

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:52 pm 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
Steelcody36 wrote:
That's a shame when watching the video, but it's not hard to watch at all.

The Paul George and Gordon Hayward injuries and the Ware kid from Louisville were ten times harder to watch.

Even more surprising to me is that educated adults still believe praying does anything.


Cody- Anything positive beats a neutral or negative any day- unless its a medical test.No one was asking you to convert to a religion, grab a set of rosary beads, kneel on a prayer mat, or have sex with a bull (Macedonians) - you could have just sent a positive thought. But I guess you wanted a chance to push your religious beliefs on the rest of us.

Cody not to attack you but you sounded like a Star Trek Nerd when the conversation is about Star Wars?

:geek: "Kirk would not use a lightsaber because it's not real science and he'd want a yellow one".


I think you're remembering wrong on that one.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:07 pm 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
Steelcody36 wrote:
That's a shame when watching the video, but it's not hard to watch at all.

The Paul George and Gordon Hayward injuries and the Ware kid from Louisville were ten times harder to watch.

Even more surprising to me is that educated adults still believe praying does anything.


Cody- Anything positive beats a neutral or negative any day- unless its a medical test.No one was asking you to convert to a religion, grab a set of rosary beads, kneel on a prayer mat, or have sex with a bull (Macedonians) - you could have just sent a positive thought. But I guess you wanted a chance to push your religious beliefs on the rest of us.

Cody not to attack you but you sounded like a Star Trek Nerd when the conversation is about Star Wars?

:geek: "Kirk would not use a lightsaber because it's not real science and he'd want a yellow one".


He won't read anything on this board, so it doesn't matter haha.

Pray to whatever invisible sky God ya want, it won't help anyone. How can I push religious beliefs on anyone when I'm not religious?

Odd statement.


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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:12 pm 
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If I was born as dumb and ugly as you, I might believe there is no god also. Prayers to you Codester.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:14 pm 
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R S wrote:
If I was born as dumb and ugly as you, I might believe there is no god also. Prayers to you Codester.


I'm younger, smarter and more successful than you.

Even if you're better looking that don't pay the bills, lol. Pray to your invisible God back cracker! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:48 pm 
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Steelcody36 wrote:
R S wrote:
If I was born as dumb and ugly as you, I might believe there is no god also. Prayers to you Codester.


I'm younger, smarter and more successful than you.

Even if you're better looking that don't pay the bills, lol. Pray to your invisible God back cracker! :lol:


Being the 369th ranked raquetball player in the USA is not what most define as success.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:04 pm 
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This is sad news. Hope he comes out ok. Always wanted us to pick up the ASU kid from draft day to every time he was a FA.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:41 pm 
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MY GOD HOPE AND PRAYS


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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:15 pm 
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Scary as hell to think he’s catching a TD pass one second and now doctors are fighting to save his leg.

Prayers to him.


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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:32 am 
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R S wrote:
I think you're remembering wrong on that one.


You're totally right. Macedonians revered bulls, Kept imagining that palace they found recently. Minoans got a little deeper- so to speak.

Steelcody36 wrote:
He won't read anything on this board, so it doesn't matter haha.

Pray to whatever invisible sky God ya want, it won't help anyone. How can I push religious beliefs on anyone when I'm not religious?

Odd statement.


True he will not read this board but we are all connected on this earth man. A human's receptiveness of thoughts and emotions can be transmitted. In no way are we to believe that our contribution to the good can be quantified in numbers- but the intent is everything, Cody. google "smile for a minute" and google "mirroring". You can internalize a feeling, externalize it, and pass it on through the process of mirroring. Fascinating science stuff.

Cody atheism is a religion. It has all the hallmarks of a religion, you guys do religious things like

You have a belief- there is no God
You have a book- The Origin of Species or any science book but its always changing. Are we doing string theory, particle theory, how many universes or planes of existence are we up to? Isn't this just a hyper-real virtual reality? Same questions that you have about the Bible, Koran, Torah, or any other religious tome
You have your version of saints- O'Hair and others who have brought visibility to your religion
A version of a messiah- Netichze or pick from any other of a list of people
You have organized and set up chapters that accept money under the 501 (c) (3) designation reserved for primarily for religious groups
You have had issues with people stealing funds meant to further your cause- Ohair.
Atheists (state-sponsored ones) have persecuted those not following atheism or their version of atheism- Dogma I think they call it

You have assholes who look down on others because they don't believe as you do.

Cody, once I understood that there is something larger than me in this world- my life got easier. And once I realized that there is a force that is on my side and I could do anything as long as I asked, followed the "golden rule", and had faith- my life got fun. I went from working 2 full-time jobs to owning a business that has access to billions in capital. I did not luck into it, God didn't just give it to me, he showed me what was possible and I had faith to believe that it could happen. I never gained much by my belief solely in myself.

People who use their religion (atheists included) as comfort and never step out on faith are very hard people to be around. Because they can never get beyond themselves. Some of the smartest people I knew in college were atheists- most of them are still there 20 years later. Never had faith to do anything with those smarts.
Saying, God doesn't exist means you've never stepped out in faith on anything huge and scary. Meantime I am going to add all the positivity and faith I can to the world, what could it hurt?

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:39 am 
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Veritas,

I just spent some time on Crete and did a tour of Knossos (the most famous Minoan palace). They revered the bull but I'm quite sure it didn't involve having sex with them. :lol: They vaulted over bulls kinda like the ancient version of the gymnastic events. It's also where the ancient myth of the Minotaur came from. Still, no sex involved. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:47 am 
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R S wrote:
Veritas,

I just spent some time on Crete and did a tour of Knossos (the most famous Minoan palace). They revered the bull but I'm quite sure it didn't involve having sex with them. :lol: They vaulted over bulls kinda like the ancient version of the gymnastic events. It's also where the ancient myth of the Minotaur came from. Still, no sex involved. :lol:


I guess they read a little more into this painting than what was actually going on

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:58 am 
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I don't think intercourse with bulls was part of Minoan religious practice.

Religious theology depends on divinely revealed principles from which it uses reason to make demonstrations.

Science and philosophy depend on rationally (human) grounded principles from which they use reason to make demonstrations, the former exclusively relying on observation and experience, the latter on both experience and deductive reasoning.

So, Veritas, you are wrong that atheism is a religion if atheism does not rely on divinely inspired first principles.

You cannot test divinely revealed principles, either by reason or experimentation, and this is the source of the requirement of faith for religion.

Atheism requires that one be persuaded by reason, but persuasion is not the same as faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:07 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
I don't think intercourse with bulls was part of Minoan religious practice.

Religious theology depends on divinely revealed principles from which it uses reason to make demonstrations.

Science and philosophy depend on rationally (human) grounded principles from which they use reason to make demonstrations, the former exclusively relying on observation and experience, the latter on both experience and deductive reasoning.

So, Veritas, you are wrong that atheism is a religion if atheism does not rely on divinely inspired first principles.

You cannot test divinely revealed principles, either by reason or experimentation, and this is the source of the requirement of faith for religion.

Atheism requires that one be persuaded by reason, but persuasion is not the same as faith.


Yeah RS gave me the site research on that. Something I read tried to legitimize the minotaur myth without bringing aliens into the mix. My discourse was to show that atheism falls into the same traps as organized religion thus could be considered one. What holds it back from achieving true theological gains is its lack of faith in anything outside of themselves and science fact of today.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:08 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
I don't think intercourse with bulls was part of Minoan religious practice.

Religious theology depends on divinely revealed principles from which it uses reason to make demonstrations.

Science and philosophy depend on rationally (human) grounded principles from which they use reason to make demonstrations, the former exclusively relying on observation and experience, the latter on both experience and deductive reasoning.

So, Veritas, you are wrong that atheism is a religion if atheism does not rely on divinely inspired first principles.

You cannot test divinely revealed principles, either by reason or experimentation, and this is the source of the requirement of faith for religion.

Atheism requires that one be persuaded by reason, but persuasion is not the same as faith.


Atheism is a world view. The only "requirement" to be a believer is to believe it.


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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:11 am 
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Havoc wrote:
Atheism is a world view. The only "requirement" to be a believer is to believe it.


Same could be said about any religion at first. Humans have a basic need to complicate things in order to legitimize them.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:08 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
I don't think intercourse with bulls was part of Minoan religious practice.

Religious theology depends on divinely revealed principles from which it uses reason to make demonstrations.

Science and philosophy depend on rationally (human) grounded principles from which they use reason to make demonstrations, the former exclusively relying on observation and experience, the latter on both experience and deductive reasoning.

So, Veritas, you are wrong that atheism is a religion if atheism does not rely on divinely inspired first principles.

You cannot test divinely revealed principles, either by reason or experimentation, and this is the source of the requirement of faith for religion.

Atheism requires that one be persuaded by reason, but persuasion is not the same as faith.


Atheism, at least if you take the word literally (no god), requires one to believe in the absence of something (god). To hold with any degree of conviction a worldview that hinges on the absence of a thing…in all of space and time…is to hold a worldview the basic premise of which cannot be proven by observation and experience. Atheists—at least as much as any world religion—hold an “I believe this because I believe this” position. One cannot have sufficient observation and experience to conclude that a thing does not exist, since observation and experience cannot account for the part(s) of the universe that exist outside of one’s scope of observation and experience. Agnosticism, leaning toward atheism, is much more credible.

Atheism says, “there is no God.” Agnosticism says, “I don’t know, but I don’t think there is a God.”

I believe there is a God. And I have mentioned Zach Miller to Him several times in the last day or so.


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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:15 pm 
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Atheism as a "belief system" wouldn't exist if it weren't for religion.

The 501 (c) (3) designation is for non profits, specifically those that are considered public charities, private foundations or private operating foundations. Not strictly religious organizations.

Also, Saying atheists have saints is an oxymoron.

saint
sānt/Submit
noun
1.
a person acknowledged as holy or virtuous and typically regarded as being in heaven after death.
2.
used in titles of religious saints.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:35 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
I don't think intercourse with bulls was part of Minoan religious practice.

Religious theology depends on divinely revealed principles from which it uses reason to make demonstrations.

Science and philosophy depend on rationally (human) grounded principles from which they use reason to make demonstrations, the former exclusively relying on observation and experience, the latter on both experience and deductive reasoning.

So, Veritas, you are wrong that atheism is a religion if atheism does not rely on divinely inspired first principles.

You cannot test divinely revealed principles, either by reason or experimentation, and this is the source of the requirement of faith for religion.

Atheism requires that one be persuaded by reason, but persuasion is not the same as faith.


Atheism is a world view. The only "requirement" to be a believer is to believe it.


Yes. And?

Belief requires persuasion and persuasion is only present in rational beings.

And because atheism and religiosity are arguably both "world views" (an uninstructive phrase), calling atheism a world view hardly distinguishes it from religion.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:41 pm 
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Quixotic wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
I don't think intercourse with bulls was part of Minoan religious practice.

Religious theology depends on divinely revealed principles from which it uses reason to make demonstrations.

Science and philosophy depend on rationally (human) grounded principles from which they use reason to make demonstrations, the former exclusively relying on observation and experience, the latter on both experience and deductive reasoning.

So, Veritas, you are wrong that atheism is a religion if atheism does not rely on divinely inspired first principles.

You cannot test divinely revealed principles, either by reason or experimentation, and this is the source of the requirement of faith for religion.

Atheism requires that one be persuaded by reason, but persuasion is not the same as faith.


Atheism, at least if you take the word literally (no god), requires one to believe in the absence of something (god). To hold with any degree of conviction a worldview that hinges on the absence of a thing…in all of space and time…is to hold a worldview the basic premise of which cannot be proven by observation and experience. Atheists—at least as much as any world religion—hold an “I believe this because I believe this” position. One cannot have sufficient observation and experience to conclude that a thing does not exist, since observation and experience cannot account for the part(s) of the universe that exist outside of one’s scope of observation and experience. Agnosticism, leaning toward atheism, is much more credible.

Atheism says, “there is no God.” Agnosticism says, “I don’t know, but I don’t think there is a God.”

I believe there is a God. And I have mentioned Zach Miller to Him several times in the last day or so.


But I do not think belief and faith are the same thing. See the distinction I drew in my post. Revealed principles are not rational principles because they are not derived from reason. Embracing them is what faith is. If you like, faith belongs to the genus belief. The species difference is that faith is grounded in the revealed word of the divine. Not so science or philosophy which embraces principles derived from human reason. Such principles admit of demonstration. Not so with the revealed word of god.

It is not possible to hold a belief without having been persuaded to it and to be persuaded is an act of reason. Is faith an act of reason or...faith. I think there is real difference here.

My aim is not to belittle religion but point out what makes it special. I think Cody's comments are silly and I am hardly religious.

It's not only about what can and cannot be proved. It's about the nature of the principles.

You are right that the atheist is in no position to demonstrate that there is no god. But the atheist is someone who refuses to embrace principles that are not derived from human reason. The atheist has belief, not faith. Those who wish to reduce faith to belief do not do religion any favors.

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 Post subject: Re: Put some Prayers up for Zach Miller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:18 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Quixotic wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
I don't think intercourse with bulls was part of Minoan religious practice.

Religious theology depends on divinely revealed principles from which it uses reason to make demonstrations.

Science and philosophy depend on rationally (human) grounded principles from which they use reason to make demonstrations, the former exclusively relying on observation and experience, the latter on both experience and deductive reasoning.

So, Veritas, you are wrong that atheism is a religion if atheism does not rely on divinely inspired first principles.

You cannot test divinely revealed principles, either by reason or experimentation, and this is the source of the requirement of faith for religion.

Atheism requires that one be persuaded by reason, but persuasion is not the same as faith.


Atheism, at least if you take the word literally (no god), requires one to believe in the absence of something (god). To hold with any degree of conviction a worldview that hinges on the absence of a thing…in all of space and time…is to hold a worldview the basic premise of which cannot be proven by observation and experience. Atheists—at least as much as any world religion—hold an “I believe this because I believe this” position. One cannot have sufficient observation and experience to conclude that a thing does not exist, since observation and experience cannot account for the part(s) of the universe that exist outside of one’s scope of observation and experience. Agnosticism, leaning toward atheism, is much more credible.

Atheism says, “there is no God.” Agnosticism says, “I don’t know, but I don’t think there is a God.”

I believe there is a God. And I have mentioned Zach Miller to Him several times in the last day or so.


But I do not think belief and faith are the same thing. See the distinction I drew in my post. Revealed principles are not rational principles because they are not derived from reason. Embracing them is what faith is. If you like, faith belongs to the genus belief. The species difference is that faith is grounded in the revealed word of the divine. Not so science or philosophy which embraces principles derived from human reason. Such principles admit of demonstration. Not so with the revealed word of god.

It is not possible to hold a belief without having been persuaded to it and to be persuaded is an act of reason. Is faith an act of reason or...faith. I think there is real difference here.

My aim is not to belittle religion but point out what makes it special. I think Cody's comments are silly and I am hardly religious.

It's not only about what can and cannot be proved. It's about the nature of the principles.

You are right that the atheist is in no position to demonstrate that there is no god. But the atheist is someone who refuses to embrace principles that are not derived from human reason. The atheist has belief, not faith. Those who wish to reduce faith to belief do not do religion any favors.


Indeed. Hebrews 10 (and I paraphrase) says, “we hold fast the faith, because He is faithful who promised.” So, as you say, the faith rests not on the empirical evidence, but on the “faithfulness” of the “promiser.”


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