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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:20 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
smithessmokin wrote:
I expect to flat out annihilate Indianapolis this coming weekend. A victory of 45-13 sounds good to me.


Slop and slather. Steelers win 15-13.


Start tipping your hat

Brisset > Glennon

Veteran RB in Gore

TY Hilton

Desperate team playing at home

Violent men on blades of grass

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:27 pm 
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955876 wrote:
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The league-wide state of the QB position is so bad, that Ben could be in a wheelchair and a have broken right arm and still be a top 10 QB.


I’m not sure he’s a top 10 QB now without that wheelchair & broken right arm.

He is 9th in yards so he makes the cut there.

18th in TDs
37th in rating
19th yards per attempt

He is 5th in INTs so solid top 10 there.

We are 6-2 so hard to be too critical but if we are being real here we could be 6-2 with a lot of mediocre QBs handing the ball to Leveon Bell a league leading number of times.

With a handful of QBs that are currently playing better than Ben we could realistically be 8-0.

He’s been a part of the problem unfortunately right along with Haley, Tomlin, and the receivers not names Brown or JuJu.

This coming from a long-time Ben homer.


Yeah, I didn't look up the stats before posting that, but I share these general feelings, as well.

I keep seeing people blame the system, receivers, etc...and I don't doubt they share some of the blame. But there's just so many throws that should be easy that he's not being precise with right now. Wide open crossing patterns, simple dump passes, etc.

When I'm watching the games, I find myself constantly yelling at Haley for not attacking the deep/intermediate middle of the field more, but on the rare instances that Ben does throw passes, I also find myself cringing at what the result is going to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
smithessmokin wrote:
I expect to flat out annihilate Indianapolis this coming weekend. A victory of 45-13 sounds good to me.


Slop and slather. Steelers win 15-13.

The Steelers have kicked the shit out of Indy in each of the last 3 seasons. Here's hoping that trend continues.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:40 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Quote:
The league-wide state of the QB position is so bad, that Ben could be in a wheelchair and a have broken right arm and still be a top 10 QB.


I’m not sure he’s a top 10 QB now without that wheelchair & broken right arm.

He is 9th in yards so he makes the cut there.

18th in TDs
37th in rating
19th yards per attempt

He is 5th in INTs so solid top 10 there.

We are 6-2 so hard to be too critical but if we are being real here we could be 6-2 with a lot of mediocre QBs handing the ball to Leveon Bell a league leading number of times.

With a handful of QBs that are currently playing better than Ben we could realistically be 8-0.

He’s been a part of the problem unfortunately right along with Haley, Tomlin, and the receivers not names Brown or JuJu.

This coming from a long-time Ben homer.


Ben and the offense got off to a slow start. Sloppy execution and poor situational play calling didn't help. Lots of moving parts with little continuity carry over from last season. Ben pressed in a few games and didn't play well. He has gotten better over the past few games and is hitting more downfield plays. His YPA has risen too. I think his best football is in front of him.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:42 pm 
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His best football this season or his best football career?

If this season I would agree. I’m expecting him to play better too.

The forced throws into triple coverage need to stop though. No reason we can’t scheme someone open with what we have to work with.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:49 pm 
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955876 wrote:
His best football this season or his best football career?

If this season I would agree. I’m expecting him to play better too.

The forced throws into triple coverage need to stop though. No reason we can’t scheme someone open with what we have to work with.


Yes, his best football this season lies ahead, in my opinion.

There are some good signs of this happening. JuJu becoming more integrated into the offense. Bryant remaining on the field, off of social media, and hopefully focused. The run blocking with Vance McDonald. The healthy return of Gilly. All this will help Ben play his best ball down the stretch.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:16 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
Obviously wrote:
smithessmokin wrote:
I expect to flat out annihilate Indianapolis this coming weekend. A victory of 45-13 sounds good to me.


Slop and slather. Steelers win 15-13.

The Steelers have kicked the shit out of Indy in each of the last 3 seasons. Here's hoping that trend continues.


I'd like to enjoy this game as opposed to having to "endure" it.

(Credit to SWISS for "endure")

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:50 pm 
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article in PPG had Tuitt saying he was running 19mph last week. Wow - that's MOVING for 6'7" 313.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:19 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Quote:
The league-wide state of the QB position is so bad, that Ben could be in a wheelchair and a have broken right arm and still be a top 10 QB.


I’m not sure he’s a top 10 QB now without that wheelchair & broken right arm.

He is 9th in yards so he makes the cut there.

18th in TDs
37th in rating
19th yards per attempt

He is 5th in INTs so solid top 10 there.

We are 6-2 so hard to be too critical but if we are being real here we could be 6-2 with a lot of mediocre QBs handing the ball to Leveon Bell a league leading number of times.

With a handful of QBs that are currently playing better than Ben we could realistically be 8-0.

He’s been a part of the problem unfortunately right along with Haley, Tomlin, and the receivers not names Brown or JuJu.

This coming from a long-time Ben homer.


Just as many turnovers as TDs, that's the definition of mediocre. He's not a top ten player at his position this year. Probably the first time you can say that in god knows how long. Disregarding injuries, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Wentz, Wilson, Alex Smith, and shoot, Deshaun Watson have really stood out this year as guys playing great at the position. I'd include Stafford, McCown, and Rivers over him this year. Goff and Carr are somewhat questionable, but have legitimate arguments. Hell, Goff's team is actually averaging over 30 a game. I mean, you can't objectively point to anything he's stood out as very good at. And areas he's stood out in the past, like his play in the fourth quarter, on third down, etc.. have been down. Really the only thing he has going for him is the 6-2 record, but then again no one on here is trumpeting Blake Bortles, Cam Newton, and Case Keenum for leading their teams to winning records either and playing great. When you've got a D that is only giving up 16 points a game, 4.8 yards a play, and only letting opponents convert on third down 32% of the time, you're going to win a bunch of games.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:39 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
I don't think Ben is in the death throes of his career or anything... and it's no small thing that he is leading this somewhat dysfunctional team to the top of the conference in record.


You can still win with Ben. Obviously!

His mobility looks gone. And he no longer looks to go through all the reads, at least not as much. I think the lack of mobility is causing him to want to get the ball out faster. So we're not getting as many of those patented WTF Ben plays.

Loss of mobility means we are looking at post-peak Ben for sure.

But the team is 6-2, so, you can win with the guy.


Just looked this up, but I think it kind of quietly speaks for how Ben's legs and mobility are shot:

Ben Roethlisberger career rushing stats, total rushing attempts and total yards:

2004: 56 for 144
2005: 31 for 69
2006: 32 for 98
2007: 35 for 204 (Ben in his prime magician days)
2008: 34 for 101
2009: 40 for 82
2010: 32 for 176
2011: 31 for 70
2012: 26 for 92
2013: 27 for 99
2014: 33 for 27 (now the salty vet pocket passer)
2015: 15 for 29 (left knee injury against the Rams)
2016: 16 for 14 (ow, I just tore my meniscus trying to run)
2017: 16 for -11

I mean, obviously a lot of that is game situation with kneels and sample size, but I do think you can see the obvious trend. If memory serves me right, he's had one rush for a first down this year I think? Maybe two? I think part of it is the series of lower leg injuries he's had over the past few years and the wear and tear over time, but I do think part of it is that he doesn't take care of himself as well as he should. FC spoke about it on the podcast, but the guy came into this season not in great shape (well, he's never in tremendous shape, but even more so this year). It's something I was harping on last year, but it was even more prominent this season. He's one of the least mobile QBs in the league, maybe the least. I hate making a Brady comparison, the dude is the best QB of all time, but Brady looks faster and more fluid than he did 10 years ago. Seriously. He's probably getting shot up with HGH and god knows what else, but part of it his maniacal focus on his body and prolonging his career. Ben doesn't have that, at least to that level. We don't need him breaking contain and throwing on the run once or twice every drive, but not having that threat, especially in the red zone now compared with how he used to play, makes us easier to defend.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:19 pm 
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Ben's missed more throws than usual, but I think some of that is on the receivers. He's also had some really bad luck this year with more drops, miscommunications, and on nearly a handful of interceptions.

So he's not been as bad as his numbers, but easily his worst season since probably 2011. We'll see how he does the 2nd half of the year. Also, interestingly enough, Football Outsiders has Ben ranked 9th in DVOA (he was 6th last week) - that measure isn't adjusted for anything other than the quality of the defense.

He hasn't missed by very much on many of his throws. But when you miss, it really doesn't matter if it's 6 inches or 6 yards. It's a lot of little things I think are correctable. 1.5 completions per game - which I think we've seen there for the taking - and the numbers start looking very different.

But 18th in 3rd down conversions (team) and 31st in RZ% is really where I think the more accurate picture emerges.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:28 am 
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Hope he gets right soon, gonna need to score td's against the cheats, can't do it on the ground.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:36 am 
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Anyone else noticed how often Ben is reaching to barely get the ball to Bell? Might be something to not practicing on Wednesday - what is that, like 1/4 less practice reps?

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:22 am 
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After rewatching some games and looking at some stats from previous years I am starting to come around to maybe some of Ben's problems.

First, the thing that has been telling for me is his percentage of first downs that he gets on his throws. You look at Tom Brady and the other top QBs they are usually at that 38-40% range. Ben was at 39.5% in 2014, then 37.1% in 2016, then down to 36.1% last season and now it is 33.5% for 2017 through 8 games.

That 33.5% first down rate is probably the worst of his career. That is Josh McCown, Jacoby Brisset, Trevor Simien territory. Just for reference, Ben's rookie year he was at 44%, the next year in 2005, the first Super Bowl it was 41%. Ben was always great at picking up first downs on his throws. But it used to be so much easier when he had Heath Miller at TE, or had viable #2 and #3 WRs that could be depended on to move the chains, to get easy throws.

We have lost those dependable, workmanlike pass catchers that did the dirty work, that kept drives going. Gone are Heath Miller, Manny Sanders, Jericho Cotchery that made it so easy for Ben just a couple of years ago.

Now? Now we don't really have a TE, that is that go-to TE that worked the field like Miller did. Yes, I want a vertical, athletic threat at TE but he must be able to do the short stuff too, make the routine catches to move the chains. Be it James or McDonald, somebody needs to step up there.

Having that consistent #2 WR who can play opposite of Brown has been a problem this year, JuJu has really come on and is a very good/great #3 and could very well be that #2. He is really the only WR outside of Brown who Ben can confidently throw to and pick up first downs, keep drives alive. JuJu has 24 catches and 19 went for first downs. JuJu has the highest catch percentage and first down percentage of the WRs and that includes being better at it than Brown.

So, Ben has Brown, JuJu and needs the TE to complete that trifecta. We need McDonald to firmly grab that starting TE job and not just catch deep passes but really clean up on the short passes, the safety blanket passes that Ben had with Miller.

Also, it is funny how Ben leads the NFL in deep passes over 40+ yards. He has 8 on the season, and just think how many he could have had if not for this or that, just an inch here or there, a player not getting their head turned around to see the ball, or slowing down on the play, or Ben just slightly off with the ball.

I don't think it can be under estimated that the tackle protection has been shaky this year. Both Left and Right tackles. Big Al has not played as well as he did to end last season. Marcus Gilbert has missed how many games? I don't mean to place Ben's troubles at their feet but you are paid to give him time to throw the ball and it is below the line this year. And to make matters worse, Gilbert was talking earlier in the year how he was perhaps unhappy with his current contract. How about staying healthy and actually play two games in a row?

I still think Ben does not have the strength and mobility that he used to have with his legs. I think he is more susceptible to bad throws as it has an impact on his throwing mechanics. It is what it is. But I think these next 8 games to end the season, Ben and the offense can get much better and maybe, just maybe, if McDonald, Bryant, Villy, Gilbert can up their games, it will allow Ben to play closer to his 2014-2015 form. Even if he only gets to say 75-80% of that Ben from two years ago, that might be enough to win a Super Bowl.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:48 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
Anyone else noticed how often Ben is reaching to barely get the ball to Bell? Might be something to not practicing on Wednesday - what is that, like 1/4 less practice reps?


Checking out

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:06 am 
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Scunge wrote:
We have lost those dependable, workmanlike pass catchers that did the dirty work, that kept drives going. Gone are Heath Miller, Manny Sanders, Jericho Cotchery that made it so easy for Ben just a couple of years ago.


Huh, what?

The Steelers let Sanders go because he was an unbelievably inconsistent pass catcher.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:08 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
Scunge,

Isn't possible that the coaches would like to use Bryant in a more diverse manner, but he is too limited in his route running?

He has supreme physical talent, but did the guy ever run anything other than go or slant even when he was playing well?

The coaches might be too stupid to use MB in other ways or MB might be too stupid to be used in more diverse ways.

Lit.
Been saying for awhile now.
This kid needs to get better at the simple routes.
And its those simple routes that he Ben should be hooking up on that will re-develop the chemistry between the two.
The 7-9 yard out.
the 8-10 yard curl.
the 5-7 yard slant.

With his speed and deep threat, these routes should be good for 3-4 connections a game. Easy.
And when I say he has to get better at these routes.....its his footwork, his speed in doing so, his change of direction, his ability to stop and turn quicker, his selling the routes properly, etc.

And then the long shots will have more room to work with.
Will create more separation.
Will allow for more uncontested catches.

But I am not so sure he has improved on these routes.
Hoping the staff is smart enough to make these simple routes part of the game plan and make these play calls.
I am not very confident that either of my last two comments will happen.

Hoping for Sunday.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:33 am 
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KC wrote:
Scunge wrote:
We have lost those dependable, workmanlike pass catchers that did the dirty work, that kept drives going. Gone are Heath Miller, Manny Sanders, Jericho Cotchery that made it so easy for Ben just a couple of years ago.


Huh, what?

The Steelers let Sanders go because he was an unbelievably inconsistent pass catcher.


I know it's a bit early still but I would venture to say Smith-Schuster is well on his way to becoming one of those "dependable/workmanlike" pass catchers. AB is certainly in this discussion as well. JMO


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:21 am 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Scunge,

Isn't possible that the coaches would like to use Bryant in a more diverse manner, but he is too limited in his route running?

He has supreme physical talent, but did the guy ever run anything other than go or slant even when he was playing well?

The coaches might be too stupid to use MB in other ways or MB might be too stupid to be used in more diverse ways.

Lit.
Been saying for awhile now.
This kid needs to get better at the simple routes.
And its those simple routes that he Ben should be hooking up on that will re-develop the chemistry between the two.
The 7-9 yard out.
the 8-10 yard curl.
the 5-7 yard slant.

With his speed and deep threat, these routes should be good for 3-4 connections a game. Easy.
And when I say he has to get better at these routes.....its his footwork, his speed in doing so, his change of direction, his ability to stop and turn quicker, his selling the routes properly, etc.

And then the long shots will have more room to work with.
Will create more separation.
Will allow for more uncontested catches.

But I am not so sure he has improved on these routes.
Hoping the staff is smart enough to make these simple routes part of the game plan and make these play calls.
I am not very confident that either of my last two comments will happen.

Hoping for Sunday.


My hunch is that when Ben still had mobility, he could make magic happen.

Ben never was much for throwing receivers open.
He was damn fine at "squirming around" receivers open.
Now, I am not taking the moronic Naelae position that all Ben ever did was run around until someone got open.

But, now that the mobility is gone, he needs his receivers to pick up the slack and be better route runners.
Ben is not going "to make" his receivers as much as he used to.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:29 am 
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Scunge wrote:
I still think Ben does not have the strength and mobility that he used to have with his legs. I think he is more susceptible to bad throws as it has an impact on his throwing mechanics.



Seems to me most of the throws he's been high on he's been stepping up in the pocket, but not really "stepping up" and more creeping up and then not stepping into the throw.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:32 am 
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To my eye Ben is throwing high. Nose of the ball is fluttering at times. Plus his release seems slower.

The one thing I don’t really car3 about is mobility. I don’t really care that part is mostly. Frankly we got really fucking lucky that we caught Ben with at ability when we did. It allowed us to basically field a scrub OL and win the SB on defense and bens ability to create.

I’ll echo what scunge said too about the OL. It’s not that they’ve been super awful, not like eagles ‘09 level of dumb. But I believe the OL play has influenced Ben and consequently the entire passing game. Teams are making hay especially off our RT which of course makes sense. Villy has dropped a few pressures too.

This is the sourc3 is the D wins championships mantra too I think. Defense is more reliable because there’s less to orchestrate. Offense a whole sequence of events has to go right in order for say the deep ball to MB in the bears game to come off. If one thing is off it doesn’t work. And like even Tony romo said, you hit on one of those and you’re an explosive offense. You miss and you’re middle of pack. So true about the 2017 steelers offense


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:37 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
After rewatching some games and looking at some stats from previous years I am starting to come around to maybe some of Ben's problems.

First, the thing that has been telling for me is his percentage of first downs that he gets on his throws. You look at Tom Brady and the other top QBs they are usually at that 38-40% range. Ben was at 39.5% in 2014, then 37.1% in 2016, then down to 36.1% last season and now it is 33.5% for 2017 through 8 games.

That 33.5% first down rate is probably the worst of his career. That is Josh McCown, Jacoby Brisset, Trevor Simien territory. Just for reference, Ben's rookie year he was at 44%, the next year in 2005, the first Super Bowl it was 41%. Ben was always great at picking up first downs on his throws. But it used to be so much easier when he had Heath Miller at TE, or had viable #2 and #3 WRs that could be depended on to move the chains, to get easy throws.


We have lost those dependable, workmanlike pass catchers that did the dirty work, that kept drives going. Gone are Heath Miller, Manny Sanders, Jericho Cotchery that made it so easy for Ben just a couple of years ago.

Now? Now we don't really have a TE, that is that go-to TE that worked the field like Miller did. Yes, I want a vertical, athletic threat at TE but he must be able to do the short stuff too, make the routine catches to move the chains. Be it James or McDonald, somebody needs to step up there.

Having that consistent #2 WR who can play opposite of Brown has been a problem this year, JuJu has really come on and is a very good/great #3 and could very well be that #2. He is really the only WR outside of Brown who Ben can confidently throw to and pick up first downs, keep drives alive. JuJu has 24 catches and 19 went for first downs. JuJu has the highest catch percentage and first down percentage of the WRs and that includes being better at it than Brown.

So, Ben has Brown, JuJu and needs the TE to complete that trifecta. We need McDonald to firmly grab that starting TE job and not just catch deep passes but really clean up on the short passes, the safety blanket passes that Ben had with Miller.

Also, it is funny how Ben leads the NFL in deep passes over 40+ yards. He has 8 on the season, and just think how many he could have had if not for this or that, just an inch here or there, a player not getting their head turned around to see the ball, or slowing down on the play, or Ben just slightly off with the ball.

I don't think it can be under estimated that the tackle protection has been shaky this year. Both Left and Right tackles. Big Al has not played as well as he did to end last season. Marcus Gilbert has missed how many games? I don't mean to place Ben's troubles at their feet but you are paid to give him time to throw the ball and it is below the line this year. And to make matters worse, Gilbert was talking earlier in the year how he was perhaps unhappy with his current contract. How about staying healthy and actually play two games in a row?

I still think Ben does not have the strength and mobility that he used to have with his legs. I think he is more susceptible to bad throws as it has an impact on his throwing mechanics. It is what it is. But I think these next 8 games to end the season, Ben and the offense can get much better and maybe, just maybe, if McDonald, Bryant, Villy, Gilbert can up their games, it will allow Ben to play closer to his 2014-2015 form. Even if he only gets to say 75-80% of that Ben from two years ago, that might be enough to win a Super Bowl.


How much of that is the golfer's "throw it short of the sticks and let the athletes make a play" offensive philosophy?

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:56 pm 
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Stosh, you're one of my favorite posters, but FFS it's Tuitt with 2 T's at the end!!!

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