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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:16 pm 
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Ok, Swiss. You say I have proved nothing, but you have not shown why. I have at least provided arguments. You continue to provide sound and fury.

If it is so obvious that I have proved nothing you'll be able to show why my arguments don't work.

So: explain which premise is unsound. Explain why the conclusions do not follow from the premises provided.

Argument 1 (Quality of wins)

P1: Wins against better quality opponents are objectively better wins.
P2: The better the opposing players (and coaches), the better quality of the opponent.
P3: Therefore, wins against better opposing players (and coaches) are better wins.
Conclusion: Rooting for injuries is rooting for wins of inferior quality.

(Not subjective at all: wins against better players are wins of higher quality: can't wait to see you argue otherwise. I expect you merely to reply that you do not care about quality. Point is, your injury manifesto roots for wins of lower quality. Your not caring is not a refutation.)

Argument 2 (Quality of pleasure)

P1: It is a more and better pleasure to accomplish something difficult than something easy. (P1 is the controversial premise).
P2: Beating a team of higher quality players is more difficult than beating a team of lower quality players.
P3: Therefore, the pleasure of the Steelers beating a team of higher quality players is of higher quality than the pleasure that comes from the Steelers beating a team with lower quality players.
Conclusion: Rooting for injuries is rooting for pleasure of lower quality.

(Regarding P1: I maintain that what is more difficult to accomplish is a pleasure of higher quality. Aiming for pleasures that involve more difficulty and are harder to obtain [e.g., Steelers beating Pats when Pats are at full strength] carry the risk of greater disappointment. So observe that my position of not rooting for injuries because I desire higher quality pleasure and higher quality wins also runs the risk of enduring greater disappointment for the fan. More on this below in argument 3.)

Argument 3 (As a fan, with respect to rooting for injuries, you're a pussy.)

P1: You root for injuries because it decreases risk.
P2: Pussies are risk averse. The pussy seeks to avoid risk as much as possible to guarantee success.
P3: Therefore, you advocate the easiest path to victory as opposed to the highest quality path.
Conclusion: your injury position is a pussy manifesto. You want the competition as weak as possible to ensure success as much as possible.

(You will say you are a prudent fan, not a pussy fan. But of course cowards think the courageous are rash and imprudent. Not calling you a coward. It's an analogy. My honest position is that I do not root for injuries because I favor higher quality of wins and higher quality pleasure. Also, I embrace the increased risk of losing [because I am not a pussy fan, but you will claim I am a stupid fan thus], and therefore enduring pain from the Steelers losing, by wishing for the Steelers to play teams at their best.)

Now, if you think my arguments prove nothing, i.e., if you think my arguments do not secure the conclusions provided, please tell us why.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:25 pm 
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I will respond in more detail tomorrow night when I am home in New Hampshire and not needing to type on my phone. Suffice to say though there is risk averse… There is risk embracing… And then there's being fucking stupid. Opting to face the patriots with gronk, with Brady rather than without them is fucking stupid


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:40 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
I will respond in more detail tomorrow night when I am home in New Hampshire and not needing to type on my phone. Suffice to say though there is risk averse… There is risk embracing… And then there's being fucking stupid. Opting to face the patriots with gronk, with Brady rather than without them is fucking stupid


Very good. You will observe in my comments that I have already foreseen this objection. As I have said, you seek to reduce risk as much as possible, not have your team face the toughest tests possible.

But we'll have a civil discourse that will benefit us both.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:07 am 
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I don't necessarily agree with this, mind you, but how about

P1. As far as the NFL is concerned, all Lombardis are considered equal regardless of how difficult or easy the path in obtaining one
P2. The same pleasure is derived from obtaining any Lombardi regardless of how difficult or easy the path in obtaining one.
P3. Therefore, may as well root for the easiest path to obtaining a Lombardi.

So disagreeing with the idea that more difficult wins (at least insofar as winning a Lombardi is concerned) are necessarily more satisfying than easy wins because even the easiest possible path to winning a Lombardi is still sufficiently difficult as to still make the winning of one immensely satisfying.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:23 am 
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Poltargyst wrote:
I don't necessarily agree with this, mind you, but how about

P1. As far as the NFL is concerned, all Lombardis are considered equal regardless of how difficult or easy the path in obtaining one
P2. The same pleasure is derived from obtaining any Lombardi regardless of how difficult or easy the path in obtaining one.
P3. Therefore, may as well root for the easiest path to obtaining a Lombardi.

So disagreeing with the idea that more difficult wins (at least insofar as winning a Lombardi is concerned) are necessarily more satisfying than easy wins because even the easiest possible path to winning a Lombardi is still sufficiently difficult as to still make the winning of one immensely satisfying.


Hi Polt.

See argument two.

Even if you do not experience more intensity of pleasure, I make the claim that the harder won games may be better pleasures bc more difficult to obtain. So the argument also concerns the quality of the pleasure. This is the hardest sell.

But I will wish to argue that some pleasures are better than others, either because of the faculties they engage (reason vs sensation) or bc the pleasure was harder to obtain. In this case, I want to say that a Lombardi secured via a harder strength of schedule is more satisfying than one via an easier strength of schedule because it was harder to obtain. What is up for grabs is whether what is harder to obtain is more satisfying OR a pleasure of higher quality.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:34 am 
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Quote:
“Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty… I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well.”
Theodore Roosevelt

Quote:
The price of success is hard work, dedication to the job at hand, and the determination that whether we win or lose, we have applied the best of ourselves to the task at hand.
Vince Lombardi

And the more plebeian wisdom
Quote:
Nothing worth having comes easy.
/Shrug.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:50 am 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Quote:
“Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty… I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well.”
Theodore Roosevelt

Quote:
The price of success is hard work, dedication to the job at hand, and the determination that whether we win or lose, we have applied the best of ourselves to the task at hand.
Vince Lombardi

And the more plebeian wisdom
Quote:
Nothing worth having comes easy.
/Shrug.


And yet, I'm willing to concede that one may feel no difference in intensity of pleasure with an easier route to the SB (which I would attribute to coarseness of feeling). But what I really want to ask is whether the pleasure from winning a harder schedule is of higher quality. This allows me to get the argument away from subjective feelings. So I have tried hard to be careful and speak of MORE as well as BETTER sorts of pleasure.

I think my second and third arguments are defeasible. The first one is absolutely rock solid.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:01 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
But what I really want to ask is whether the pleasure from winning a harder schedule is of higher quality.
The NFL seems to think so in determining tie breakers with teams and their "strength of schedule," yes? You are talking about subjective personal pleasure. . .

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:08 am 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
But what I really want to ask is whether the pleasure from winning a harder schedule is of higher quality.
The NFL seems to think so in determining tie breakers with teams and their "strength of schedule," yes? You are talking about subjective personal pleasure. . .

One could also use that argument though, and say that in some circumstances, win over browns exceeds win over patriots, had Steelers still be in dogfight for afc norf crown


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:55 am 
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Ok...I'll try this again...just spent 15 min on a post that didn't post cuz one of you asshats was posting at the same time. Rainy, foggy morn in nyc...Empire State bldg is rite outside my window, can't even see it. Excuse typos on this phone post. The goody professor, still lit, is already ceding the majority of his foolish arguments, largely because he's guilty of something which he accused another poster of in the Shazier thread, that being assuming what he is fringe to prove. The prob, professor, is that you're assuming what you're trying to prove. Also, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, lit. Jeems enjoyed the 11 win over pats more than the 08 win. I'm the opposite. Why?? Cuz there's other factors beyond the strength of your opponent, factors like the venue and the particulars of the game. The 08 win was in Foxboro, fat Casey Hampton had a full fledged tantrum following a bullshit penalty, then em a big play directly following, with the same histrionics. James Harrison beat Matt lightweight twice for strip sacks. And best of all, Ryan Clark lit wes welder the fuck up. So...for ME, that game was the more enjoyable one. And I'll come back to an earlier point...does anyone for a second think that there was any Teeth gnashing in New England on Sunday nite, anyone bellyaching that thei enjoyment was compromised because AB left the game earlier?? Jeems' protests aside, it's an apt comparison and his absence didn't fuckin matter to the smug mother fuckers that root for the new england patriots. I'll endorse polyts points. Some events, like an Sb win, are such singular achievements, so immensely enjoyable, that any other add-in's, like your opponent
Not being at full strength, are negligible at best. Seems like lit is the sort that worries about what detractors will say about other teams injuries, about other teams penalties, like in SB XL. Me...I don't much give a fuck. I'll enjoy a Steeler winover pats just as much if gronk doesn't play as if he does, unless of coursr, we manage to fuck him up in the process (starting g to hate that biitch approaching tedi bruschi hate). So...all that said, I'll opt for increasing my teams chances of beating these fucks by having their best players on the shelf..and I'll enjoy that win no less as a result. Sorry bout the tupos


Last edited by swissvale72 on Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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