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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:10 pm 
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KC wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
I think the turtling is possibly Tomlin mandated or approved.

And if all interested parties would care to scroll up some, you'll see who I said I would pick to keep.

Haley is everyone's whipping boy. I do not know if he deserves the amount of scorn he gets on here.

Why on earth has the team kept him for 6 years?


I think Haley can draw up some awfully interesting plays and it's very true that he changed the way Ben Roethlisberger plays.

Ben gets rid of the ball much quicker now but Haley struggles mightily as a play caller. I doubt seriously Tomlin overrules Haley in the middle of a game.

Tomlin is an idiot for sure, in that he seems to trust a defense that has struggled against the shittiest of the shitty.

But everyone knows that this team will only go as far as our offense takes us.

Anyone with a working brain, that is. Our defense gives up waaaaay too many big plays and they'll do the same if we face New England again.

We don't score 40 we're likely going to be toast. Haley doesn't call plays like he's looking to score 40,.
I think haley should be an offensive consultant, but stay off the sidelines.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:20 pm 
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Pretty sure that's what they've been trying to do, Cor.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Pretty sure that's what they've been trying to do, Cor.


I love that his professional life mimics his cuckholded personal one


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:25 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
KC wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
I think the turtling is possibly Tomlin mandated or approved.

And if all interested parties would care to scroll up some, you'll see who I said I would pick to keep.

Haley is everyone's whipping boy. I do not know if he deserves the amount of scorn he gets on here.

Why on earth has the team kept him for 6 years?


I think Haley can draw up some awfully interesting plays and it's very true that he changed the way Ben Roethlisberger plays.

Ben gets rid of the ball much quicker now but Haley struggles mightily as a play caller. I doubt seriously Tomlin overrules Haley in the middle of a game.

Tomlin is an idiot for sure, in that he seems to trust a defense that has struggled against the shittiest of the shitty.

But everyone knows that this team will only go as far as our offense takes us.

Anyone with a working brain, that is. Our defense gives up waaaaay too many big plays and they'll do the same if we face New England again.

We don't score 40 we're likely going to be toast. Haley doesn't call plays like he's looking to score 40,.
I think haley should be an offensive consultant, but stay off the sidelines.


I'd be interested to hear the discussions that Ben and Fitchner have during the game. SInce Fitchner has been a play caller in college and also played DB in college, maybe he is helping Ben with recognition of what they discussed in meetings during the week. Ben mentioned on the radio today that he spends most of his time with Fitchner and the back up QBs during the week. When Batch was still around he would always go right to him when he came off the field. Maybe Fitchner is the new Batch for Ben.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Ice wrote:
Pretty sure that's what they've been trying to do, Cor.


I love that his professional life mimics his cuckholded personal one


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:38 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Ice wrote:
Pretty sure that's what they've been trying to do, Cor.


I love that his professional life mimics his cuckholded personal one


But he was just watching the ball drop, then BAM!!!! :P

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:43 pm 
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Haley can fucking kick rocks. This is the best Steelers OL I can remember watching.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:54 pm 
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I think many here are vastly underestimating Mike Munchak's role in the improved offense.

Todd Haley has in the past, been designated as a Passing Game coordinator, as in his time with Dallas. He coached the WRs and developed the passing game.

In his time in Arizona, he was officially the offensive coordinator but Whisenhut called the plays until very late in the season of 2007. So, Todd was the OC for two years but called the plays only one of those seasons.

Here in Pittsburgh, the offense was sort of not really doing all that well Haley's first two years, we were 8-8 for those first two season under Haley as the OC. Points scored we were 22nd, 16th, yards we were 20th, 21st.

Mike Munchak being hired and him being able to not just develop the offensive line, but to bring expertise in how to develop a running game was so, so crucial. This was outside of Haley's wheelhouse, he needed help and nobody is better at doing that then Munchak.

It seems to me that Todd Haley has needed help at every NFL team that he has ever coached at. Whether it was being just a Passing Game coordinator with Dallas, having Whisenhut hold his hand and call plays for him until he thought he was ready, or bringing in a Munchak to get the running game polished and working, Haley has never proven to be able to do it all alone.

It is ludicrous to see some other sites and media types give him so much credit. You take away Munchak and Randy Fitchner and Richard Mann and this offense is not the same. Take away Haley, keep Munchak, promote Fitchner and move Charlie Batch into Fitchner's vacant QB coach position and the offense does not miss a beat. That is how expendable Todd Haley truly is.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:51 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
If Haley leaves, do we get to keep his play designs?

Saw this on Depot: four of the top six scoring seasons in franchise history have come over the past four years.

Fun to throw tomatoes at Haley, but that is impressive.


That QB, #7, is pretty good.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:35 am 
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Hinestuff wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
If Haley leaves, do we get to keep his play designs?

Saw this on Depot: four of the top six scoring seasons in franchise history have come over the past four years.

Fun to throw tomatoes at Haley, but that is impressive.


That QB, #7, is pretty good.


Now, see, what you meant write was that although our hall of fame QB is pretty good, for some reason we did not have four out of the six top scoring seasons until after Haley showed up.

And if you wanted to put pressure on my position you would point to Munchak being hired or Bell being drafted during these scoring runs.

But instead you just posted that Ben is pretty good.

What Scunge says may hit the nail on the head.

Still, 6 years is a long time to put up with an albatross.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:29 am 
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But Lit how many of those top scoring seasons happened with Haley without Mike Munchak?

Oh, that is right! All of them happened with Mike Munchak! Mike Munchak is hired to coach the O-line, the running game takes off with Bell and the offense takes off too.

I would argue that does not happen if Munchak IS NOT hired.

And yet how often do we see the offense come up small in big moments when it matters the most?

Somebody the other day was extolling the virtues of Boz's playoff production, to me that is something to be ashamed of if you are an OC. No kicker should be kicking 6 FGs in a playoff game because the offense can't score touchdowns.

Haley is holding this team back, holding this offense back. The offense accomplishes what it does in spite of Haley not because of him. That is my story and I am sticking to it!!

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:37 am 
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Spot on scunge

Now will Haley fight being put in the booth?

To me he can observe the coverages better than sidelines and make better informed calls to Ben

I think his ego is so overblown that he doesn’t want to improve

But fool me once fool me twice. Just let Ben run it......we see the results with Fitchner being more involved

Unshackle this beast further

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:41 am 
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Hopefully Munch stays. Hate to lose him but I understand should he decide to leave. Arizona/Steelers West at it again. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:00 am 
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Scunge wrote:
But Lit how many of those top scoring seasons happened with Haley without Mike Munchak?

Oh, that is right! All of them happened with Mike Munchak! Mike Munchak is hired to coach the O-line, the running game takes off with Bell and the offense takes off too.

I would argue that does not happen if Munchak IS NOT hired.

And yet how often do we see the offense come up small in big moments when it matters the most?

Somebody the other day was extolling the virtues of Boz's playoff production, to me that is something to be ashamed of if you are an OC. No kicker should be kicking 6 FGs in a playoff game because the offense can't score touchdowns.

Haley is holding this team back, holding this offense back. The offense accomplishes what it does in spite of Haley not because of him. That is my story and I am sticking to it!!


Ding Ding! We have a winner! Looking @ how much talent is on this team offensively to consistently be middle of the pack in terms of scoring is an abomination. To be consistently be on the lower end of the league in RZ production is an abomination and this falls @ the feet of one Todd Haley.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:06 am 
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I don't think Munchak would have a broken hip if he got shoved outside a bar. The guy who shoved him might.


Last edited by blu on Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:07 am 
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Lit, you disappoint me. Post hoc ergo propter hoc?

Few other explanations:

1. League scoring is up; natural Steelers scoring would go up.

2. HOF QB with HOF WR (GOAT??) + HOF talent at RB + great line + good support cast?

3. Some combo of 1/2.

Not saying those prove that Haley isn’t a major reason, but certainly give credence that he may not be a major reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:24 am 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
1. League scoring is up; natural Steelers scoring would go up.


4/6 is meaningless. No context.

The late 70's offense shits on this offense.

PS '78 & '79 we scored...

33,34,35
34, 27, 31

That is back to back PS Lombardi runs averaging over 30 per game. GREATNESS.

If our current offense goes on a dominant run leading us to #7... it will be a different discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:44 am 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
Lit, you disappoint me. Post hoc ergo propter hoc?

Few other explanations:

1. League scoring is up; natural Steelers scoring would go up.

2. HOF QB with HOF WR (GOAT??) + HOF talent at RB + great line + good support cast?

3. Some combo of 1/2.

Not saying those prove that Haley isn’t a major reason, but certainly give credence that he may not be a major reason.


No need to be disappointed bc it is not my intention to demonstrate that Haley is the only cause scoring is up. As I said earlier, I am merely suspicious that Haley deserves the amount scorn he gets. I am trying to give reasons that put pressure on the position that Haley is merely an albatross as opposed to a contributor to the team's success.

And I have already conceded that Munchak and Bell are key.

Just trying to follow sone arguments and see what sticks. Trying to offer contrary positions without trolling. That's all.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:24 pm 
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The offense actually took off in the 2nd half of 2013, before Munchak:

1st 7 games of 2013, average points: 17.9
Last 9 games, average points: 28.2

1st 9 games, number of sacks: 4 per game (36 sacks)
Last 7 games, number of sacks: 1 per game (7 sacks)

That's the reason we almost made the playoffs out of nowhere. The difference in sacks is amazing; something clearly clicked midseason. Again, this is before Munchak and Bell, and at a time when the defense was still bottoming out. (It hit bottom really in 2014.)

I agree though that Haley's positive contributions ended a while ago. Also, if Ben doesn't want him, then Haley needs to go. No other argument matters.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Last line exactly my point, too, Drummer. If you're picking Haley+Laundry over Fitch+Ben, you're out of your bloody mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:42 pm 
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Steel Drummer wrote:
The offense actually took off in the 2nd half of 2013, before Munchak:

1st 7 games of 2013, average points: 17.9
Last 9 games, average points: 28.2

1st 9 games, number of sacks: 4 per game (36 sacks)
Last 7 games, number of sacks: 1 per game (7 sacks)

That's the reason we almost made the playoffs out of nowhere. The difference in sacks is amazing; something clearly clicked midseason. Again, this is before Munchak and Bell, and at a time when the defense was still bottoming out. (It hit bottom really in 2014.)

I agree though that Haley's positive contributions ended a while ago. Also, if Ben doesn't want him, then Haley needs to go. No other argument matters.


I don't know...look at who we played during those last nine games...explains a lot, imo...NE & GB required a lot of scoring just be in the games, Browns twice, Cinci, Bill, Lions, and Fins at home.

9 November 3 at New England Patriots L 31–55
10 November 10 Buffalo Bills W 23–10
11 November 17 Detroit Lions W 37–27
12 November 24 at Cleveland Browns W 27–11
13 November 28 at Baltimore Ravens L 20–22
14 December 8 Miami Dolphins L 28–34
15 December 15 Cincinnati Bengals W 30–20
16 December 22 at Green Bay Packers W 38–31
17 December 29 Cleveland Browns W 20–7


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:57 pm 
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This thread is ridiculous. It's like asking what is worse losing $20 (Munchak) or a buck & a half (Haley). Haley would have already been gone without Munchak.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:12 pm 
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With any common sense or luck Haley is gone and Munchak can respectfully decline the HC job in Arizona and stay put. 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:12 pm 
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I am curious to see if the steelers resign Haley after the season especially if they win the SB


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:17 pm 
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steelmann58 wrote:
I am curious to see if the steelers resign Haley after the season especially if they win the SB

It is curious that they haven't renewed his contract. Is it dependent on how the season turns out? Or is he already out at the end of the season?


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:16 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
steelmann58 wrote:
I am curious to see if the steelers resign Haley after the season especially if they win the SB

It is curious that they haven't renewed his contract. Is it dependent on how the season turns out? Or is he already out at the end of the season?

Haley will be back, Ben on the other hand...

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:46 pm 
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Jobus i also think if they win a SB Ben might be riding off in the sunset.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:48 pm 
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steelmann58 wrote:
Jobus i also think if they win a SB Ben might be riding off in the sunset.

Bittersweet...

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:26 am 
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Yes it will be but it going to be a day when it comes in the near future an we might as well go out with a trophy.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:32 am 
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I hope if Ben does retire they don't throw money at Cousins


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:08 am 
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steelmann58 wrote:
I hope if Ben does retire they don't throw money at Cousins


They wouldn't go after Cousins - nothing in Steelers' history indicates that they would. They would likely draft another QB to sit behind Landry. Local sports guys who are close to the team see no signs from Ben that a SB win would hasten his retirement. The team has enough talent to compete for rings for the next 3 years. Franchise QB's seldom walk away from a loaded roster.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:16 pm 
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44LetzRide wrote:
steelmann58 wrote:
I hope if Ben does retire they don't throw money at Cousins


They wouldn't go after Cousins - nothing in Steelers' history indicates that they would. They would likely draft another QB to sit behind Landry. Local sports guys who are close to the team see no signs from Ben that a SB win would hasten his retirement. The team has enough talent to compete for rings for the next 3 years. Franchise QB's seldom walk away from a loaded roster.

They would go after a factory refurbished Bradford.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Alex Smith is about one getting pulled in a playoff game away from being on the street next year. If Haley stays and Ben goes, Smith is coming here.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:06 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Alex Smith is about one getting pulled in a playoff game away from being on the street next year. If Haley stays and Ben goes, Smith is coming here.




Got a feeling Smith with be a Buffalo Bill next season and we'll sign Tyrod to back up Ben


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:24 pm 
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Ben's idol growing up was John Elway. Elway retired after back to back super bowl wins. If Ben wins it this year I wouldn't bet against him coming back to try to go out like Elway.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:42 pm 
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i think you might be on to something and Ben would love to tie Terry record.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:32 pm 
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Munch interviewed with Arizona yesterday.
The OL under Munch has been very good.
Ben getting sacked less over the last four years

Sacked 91 times last 4 years.
sacked 144 the four years previous to Munch.

More importantly, has taken UDFA's and less pedigree, oft sized players, etc..... and elevated their play.

Villy,
Finney,
Hubbard,
Cody Wallace
Beachem.

I think Feiler and Hawkins are more ready to step in than we think.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:40 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
Ben's idol growing up was John Elway. Elway retired after back to back super bowl wins. If Ben wins it this year I wouldn't bet against him coming back to try to go out like Elway.




Bens stated goal has always been to have won more Lombardis than TB.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:43 pm 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
Munch interviewed with Arizona yesterday.
The OL under Munch has been very good.
Ben getting sacked less over the last four years

Sacked 91 times last 4 years.
sacked 144 the four years previous to Munch.

More importantly, has taken UDFA's and less pedigree, oft sized players, etc..... and elevated their play.

Villy,
Finney,
Hubbard,
Cody Wallace
Beachem.

I think Feiler and Hawkins are more ready to step in than we think.


I thought Munch always said "I don't wanna be a HC anymore".
Or was that just toeing the company line?


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:03 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Stosh-67 wrote:
Munch interviewed with Arizona yesterday.
The OL under Munch has been very good.
Ben getting sacked less over the last four years

Sacked 91 times last 4 years.
sacked 144 the four years previous to Munch.

More importantly, has taken UDFA's and less pedigree, oft sized players, etc..... and elevated their play.

Villy,
Finney,
Hubbard,
Cody Wallace
Beachem.

I think Feiler and Hawkins are more ready to step in than we think.


I thought Munch always said "I don't wanna be a HC anymore".
Or was that just toeing the company line?

Even if he doesn't want to be a HC, going on a HC interview certainly might encourage your current employer to open up a bag of money for you. And, something I don't think I've ever heard him say is..."I don't wanna be richer anymore".

Oh yeah, I almost forgot...cheap ass Rooneys! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:13 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Alex Smith is about one getting pulled in a playoff game away from being on the street next year. If Haley stays and Ben goes, Smith is coming here.


Never going to happen with Jones already on the roster.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:12 pm 
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Lynch wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Alex Smith is about one getting pulled in a playoff game away from being on the street next year. If Haley stays and Ben goes, Smith is coming here.


Never going to happen with Jones already on the roster.


I agree, B2B.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:31 am 
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Ice wrote:
Lynch wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Alex Smith is about one getting pulled in a playoff game away from being on the street next year. If Haley stays and Ben goes, Smith is coming here.


Never going to happen with Jones already on the roster.


I agree, B2B.


Smith is Jones with athletic ability. I would'nt trade older athlete for what we have on the roster.

I

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:35 am 
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Assuming Ben is gone and Haley stays, Smith is plug and play in Haley's offense. He does everything Todd wants at a high level. Landry is what he is: an undynamic stopgap. He'll never be a legit starter in the league.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:41 am 
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Steelers will never pay him what he deserves, as a stop loss...IMO.

They have holes elsewhere to spend cash.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:51 am 
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Also, there's no guarantee Haley is there next season.

If I'm Tomlin/Colbert, i look at Ben with Haleys concepts & say Fichner can do that job...thats assuming Ben does'nt retire.

If Ben does retire, i go heavy on ILB, FS & TE. I give Landy the keys for a year & see how it goes.

I also hate talking about next year when the present is crucial. .

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:50 pm 
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Quote:

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Ben Roethlisberger now whether this is last Heinz Field game: “I don’t think it is but I’m not thinking about that right now. I’m going to play this one and give it everything I have.”


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:06 am 
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Looking like Munch will stay in Pittsburgh. :D

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Pat Shurmur has emerged as the frontrunner to replace Bruce Arians https://www.abc15.com/sports/sports-blo ... head-coach


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:21 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Looking like Munch will stay in Pittsburgh. :D

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Pat Shurmur has emerged as the frontrunner to replace Bruce Arians https://www.abc15.com/sports/sports-blo ... head-coach


1. Pat Shurmur is still alive and coaching?
2. Thank god for the ol boys network in the NFL...did they interview a minority candidate?


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:49 pm 
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There HAD to be better candidates out there than Shurmur. Look at McVay. Hell, go back 11 years and look at Tomlin. Look at Dan Quinn. McDermott. Doug Pederson. Even Zimmer is in his first HC job. That's half the playoff field. Give some young, innovative minds a chance. I mean, it's not as crazy as giving TV's Jon Gruden 10 years and 100 million, but it's silly to just keep recycling names.


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