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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:48 pm 
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I don't know what the stats are, but top 10 isn't one of the best in the league. It is basically top 1/3.

I know 43 likes to present himself, smugly, as the responsible person in the room. If he can't see the faults of Tomlin and understand why that makes many want to move on, that tells you something about 43. If he does see it, but likes to smugly laugh at people instead of making an argument, well...that shows something about 43 as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
I don't know what the stats are, but top 10 isn't one of the best in the league. It is basically top 1/3.

I know 43 likes to present himself, smugly, as the responsible person in the room. If he can't see the faults of Tomlin and understand why that makes many want to move on, that tells you something about 43. If he does see it, but likes to smugly laugh at people instead of making an argument, well...that shows something about 43 as well.


How is Top 10 not one of the best? I realize it's arguing semantics but where is the cutoff then? Is it just placed where ever the person making the point can use it to be correct?

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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:26 pm 
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KC wrote:
fortythree wrote:
Havoc wrote:
I'll add this...

We had a decade of historically great defense that started pre Tomlin. That machine was already in place and it was masterminded by Lebeau.

The offense under Tomlin has never been one of the very best in the league.


So the last four seasons when the offense was Top 10 in points scored never happened?


You're excited about top 10 in the league when, for the last several years we have trotted out a CERTAIN first ballot Hall of Famer at QB, a WR some are calling the BEST EVER and who is clearly also on his way to the Hall of Fame and a RB who is known as the best in the entire league (not only as an amazing RB, also as a very dangerous receiver).

You're gonna be excited about a few top 10 finishes with that group?


yea, "top 10" with:
HOF QB
HOF RB
HOF WR
HOF Center

fucking joke-- this team should be a top 3 offense every year with this talent.

Tomlin's one super bowl win came with almost all Cowher players, and definitely all the player-leaders were drafted by Cowher.

It's plain and simple - Tomlin has been riding the coattails of a HOF QB -- Tomlin was blessed with inheriting a HOF QB when he was hired, and he's has been able to turn that into a record of "no losing seasons". When Ben retires, Tomlin will follow immediately. He is very savvy with regard to his career, that's for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:28 pm 
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steel wrote:
Tomlin's one super bowl win came with almost all Cowher players, and definitely all the player-leaders were drafted by Cowher.


Colbert's players.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:39 pm 
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Tomlin would be nothing without Ben as his QB and Tomlin does not learn from his mistakes and gets out coached. But he going to have a job for as long as he wants it so all this tomlin fired talk is a waste of time


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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:54 pm 
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steelmann58 wrote:
Tomlin would be nothing without Ben as his QB and Tomlin does not learn from his mistakes and gets out coached. But he going to have a job for as long as he wants it so all this tomlin fired talk is a waste of time


Do you actually think "wouldn't be successful without a franchise QB" is a knock on a coach?

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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:09 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
steelmann58 wrote:
Tomlin would be nothing without Ben as his QB and Tomlin does not learn from his mistakes and gets out coached. But he going to have a job for as long as he wants it so all this tomlin fired talk is a waste of time


Do you actually think "wouldn't be successful without a franchise QB" is a knock on a coach?


This is your standard reply to people who comment about Tomlin having a HOF QB, which is something different from what we are saying.

"Franchise QB" in today's league is basically 10-15 QB's who are long-term starters. In Tomlin's time, you have basically Peyton, Brady, Brees, Ben and Rodgers as locks for the HOF. But if Tomlin had one of the non-HOF franchise guys, he ain't winning shit. Tomlin wouldn't win a ring with Eli, or Flacco, or Russell Wilson, or Nick Foles....

So, no, Tomlin is not a top-10 HC in this league, and we'll see that soon enough after Ben hangs 'em up.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:12 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
steel wrote:
Tomlin's one super bowl win came with almost all Cowher players, and definitely all the player-leaders were drafted by Cowher.


Colbert's players.


hahahahah

You still think the GM in Pgh has more power than the HEAD COACH?

Go ask Tom Donohoe

You're probably not old enough to remember him.

The Rooneys laid down the law awhile ago -- HC > GM when it comes to choosing players.

Cowher's players -- Donohoe/Colbert worked for Cowher -- Colbert works for Tomlin, not vice versa


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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:38 pm 
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steel wrote:
The Rooneys laid down the law awhile ago -- HC > GM when it comes to choosing players.


That is bullshit. Colbert wanted to draft Big Ben and Cowher wanted G Shawn Andrews and 'The Rooneys' broke the tie and they went with drafting Ben. To say that Cowher somehow was more responsible for the players that we drafted is just wrong. Cowher was never a Bill Parcels or Belichick, those guys can coach and also are very astute at player evaluation, the draft, etc. Cowher was never in that category.

Also, you look at that 2005 Super Bowl winning team, it was not just all players drafted by Colbert.

Jerome Bettis brought in by trade by Tom Donahoe
Hines Ward drafted by Tom Donahoe
Alan Faneca drafted by Tom Donahoe
Joey Porter drafted by Tom Donahoe
Aaron Smith drafted by Tom Donahoe
DeShea Townsend drafted by Tom Donahoe

You take away those 6 players from that 2005 team, do we make the Super Bowl? Do we make the playoffs?

These arguments of trying to attribute this Super Bowl to this coach or that coach, or this GM to that GM is so pointless, it is more nuanced than that.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:11 pm 
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steel wrote:
fortythree wrote:
steel wrote:
Tomlin's one super bowl win came with almost all Cowher players, and definitely all the player-leaders were drafted by Cowher.


Colbert's players.


hahahahah

You still think the GM in Pgh has more power than the HEAD COACH?

Go ask Tom Donohoe

You're probably not old enough to remember him.

The Rooneys laid down the law awhile ago -- HC > GM when it comes to choosing players.

Cowher's players -- Donohoe/Colbert worked for Cowher -- Colbert works for Tomlin, not vice versa


Yeah man. Cowher is responsible for Ben being here, huh?

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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:12 pm 
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At this point there's always someone who chimes in with evidence that Cowher did want Ben and that story isn't true. I don't claim to know the truth one way or the other.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:17 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
fortythree wrote:
steelmann58 wrote:
Tomlin would be nothing without Ben as his QB and Tomlin does not learn from his mistakes and gets out coached. But he going to have a job for as long as he wants it so all this tomlin fired talk is a waste of time


Do you actually think "wouldn't be successful without a franchise QB" is a knock on a coach?


This is your standard reply to people who comment about Tomlin having a HOF QB, which is something different from what we are saying.

"Franchise QB" in today's league is basically 10-15 QB's who are long-term starters. In Tomlin's time, you have basically Peyton, Brady, Brees, Ben and Rodgers as locks for the HOF. But if Tomlin had one of the non-HOF franchise guys, he ain't winning shit. Tomlin wouldn't win a ring with Eli, or Flacco, or Russell Wilson, or Nick Foles....


"If Tomlin had a non-HOF franchise guy" is the new "if you take away his long runs..." it's a terrible argument that cannot be proven or disproved. We will never know if he would or wouldn't have.

But to discredit the guy because of that is kind of dumb.

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So, no, Tomlin is not a top-10 HC in this league


That is absolutely hysterical. Both from a standpoint of the data we have (win-loss record, Super Bowls, etc.) but also because you can't name 10 head coaches better than him. I mean, I'm sure you will list ten or more but you won't be able to make legitimate arguments for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:18 pm 
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Well since the Steelers won't fire Tomlin we see what happens when Ben retires.


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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:36 pm 
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I will explain this more simply for the posters who have Kindergarten-sized minds here:

Steelers Hierarchy:

OWNER

HEAD COACH

GM

when you say this guy or that guy is "colberts guy" or "donohoe's guy" -- it's bullshit. The HC trumps the GM in matters of who is ultimately selected. This fact was proven in the cowher/donohoe power struggle years ago.

And, of course, the Owner trumps every body.

Tomlin won his super bowl primarily with Cowher's guys, period.


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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:52 pm 
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steel wrote:
I will explain this more simply for the posters who have Kindergarten-sized minds here:

Steelers Hierarchy:

OWNER

HEAD COACH

GM

when you say this guy or that guy is "colberts guy" or "donohoe's guy" -- it's bullshit. The HC trumps the GM in matters of who is ultimately selected. This fact was proven in the cowher/donohoe power struggle years ago.

And, of course, the Owner trumps every body.

Tomlin won his super bowl primarily with Cowher's guys, period.


You can say it all you want but that doesn't make it true.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:10 am 
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I agree with Steel Tomlin gets his choice of picks when it comes to the draft.
They rushed to pick Burns and blew the Bud Pick


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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:32 am 
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steelmann58 wrote:
I agree with Steel Tomlin gets his choice of picks when it comes to the draft.
They rushed to pick Burns and blew the Bud Pick


The Head Coach in the Steeler hierarchy is way above the GM

Look at their pay checks if you need any other evidence.

Not even close.

Donohoe was fired when Cowher wanted him gone. That's how it is in Pittsburgh. FACT


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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:35 am 
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I'm not saying the HC does all the scouting and all the work of the GM group -- of course not. They work together on putting a roster together.

But the HC has a higher authority than the GM - no question about it.

Steeler drafts and Free agency have a very different feel with Tomlin vs. Cowher -- even though the GM was the same for many of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:00 am 
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steel wrote:
I will explain this more simply for the posters who have Kindergarten-sized minds here:

Steelers Hierarchy:

OWNER

HEAD COACH

GM

when you say this guy or that guy is "colberts guy" or "donohoe's guy" -- it's bullshit. The HC trumps the GM in matters of who is ultimately selected. This fact was proven in the cowher/donohoe power struggle years ago.

And, of course, the Owner trumps every body.

Tomlin won his super bowl primarily with Cowher's guys, period.


I still call bullshit on all of that, Steel.

The Steelers have a power structure where the Coach and GM are on equal footing and they both answer to the Owner.

Donahoe and Cowher did have a fight, there was a power struggle, Cowher made an ultimatum where he told the Rooneys that one of them had to go, you either keep me or send Donahoe packing. He won at that time, but the Rooneys were beginning to get tired of Cowher. They were starting to get tired of Cowher burning out coaches. You look at somebody like LeBeau who left and accepted the same position with Cincy or special teams coach Bobby April who got burned out in dealing with Cowher. Then Cowher and his contract demands, the playing coy about maybe leaving for bigger money elsewhere when his next contract was due.

When ownership changed and Dan retired and handed over control to his son, things changed. Art was more demanding, more hands on than his father had been of late. He was calling out Cowher, was tired of the excuses. After all you wanted Donahoe gone, fine, we did that. We hired your hand picked GM back in 2000 in Colbert. We kept your QB Kordell Stewart over Jim Miller. Remember that drama? Many like to place the blame of hanging on to Stewart too long on Tom Donahoe but Tom actually was not sold on Stewart and wanted to keep Jim Miller in the fold and pushed for giving him that contract. Doesn't anybody remember that? Cowher was livid, how dare you give this contract to Jim Miller, Stewart is my QB, blah, blah, blah.

Anyway, Art and Cowher were at odds with each other. Under Art, Cowher was now on a very short leash and Rooney was very public in the media, the newspaper in expecting results. The simple fact that the Rooneys had to break a tie between the GM and Cowher, that Cowher did not want to draft Ben shows how Cowher did not have the power you are claiming.

And when Cowher left and they hired Tomlin? Tomlin has never had any power whatsoever compared to Cowher. When they hired Tomlin, the Rooneys changed the dynamic of what they expect from their head coach. No longer would they give so much lattitude to a head coach.

When Cowher was hired in 1992, he was able to totally hire and fire his assistant coaches with one exception, Dick Hoak. Dick Hoak was a former player and long time coach, and close personal friend to the Rooney family and he was going to be able to coach until the day he decided to retire. He was off limits but the rest of the assistant coaches were open to be fired. Cowher did just that, bringing in his hand picked staff. And over the years he went through many, many coaches, on offense, on defense, on special teams.

But Tomlin when he was hired in 2007? He came in and had none of that luxury. He was not able to bring in his hand picked coaches or staff. There were so many coaches that he had to just accept, that were off limits. No, we know you are a 4-3 Tony Dungy disciple but you are going to have to keep Dick LeBeau and his 3-4 if we hire you to be the head coach, that is what Tomlin heard in the interview process. That is totally different from what Cowher experienced. The whole experience of Bruce Arians getting the axe. The idea that Tomlin probably wanted to keep Arians and Rooney talks to the media and says he is retiring? :lol: The whole joke about bringing in Todd Haley, the son of former Steelers GM Dick Haley? Like Tomlin had any say so in any of that? No, the current head coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers has no say so in hiring or firing assistant coaches, that seems to be entirely up to Rooney.

Also, look to examples where the transition tags and franchise tags were applied. Remember Max Starks? Remember how it seemed the offensive line coach and the OC and Tomlin were less than thrilled with Starks and yet the only one in his apparent corner, besides Ben, was Colbert who would place the tag on him and keep him on the team? This is a perfect example of how there was a difference of opinion on this player and how the GM and HC were at odds and it is pretty apparent that Rooney had to step in and ruled with Colbert in keeping Starks.

If Tomin had the say so that you think, Steel, then why isn't Bell signed to a long term contract yet? Colbert and Rooney obviously think Bell and his demands are outrageous. Tomlin is probably okay with giving him whatever he wants. Bell is not here, is not signed long term, and Tomlin just does not have that type of power to make it any different.

I don't mean to intimate that this is a black/white thing. It has nothing to do with race, the Rooneys learned a lesson from giving too much control and power to Cowher. When they moved on from him they made the decision to apply new rules to the dynamic of their team. The GM and HC are equals, more or less, and the Rooneys may actually side more with the GM in most matters.

Now, I am not exactly endorsing that approach. Maybe this new dynamic, these new rules that the Rooneys have applied is at odds with winning a championship. Maybe there is something to be said for having that head coach that has more power. As I see it Tomlin is handicapped unnecessarily, how can I judge him one way or the other if he has these restrictions on him?

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 Post subject: Re: Fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:57 am 
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Scunge...that was a fine piece of writing and the factual transaction were $.


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